Shopsmith Forums

I appreciate the inputs very much though I am not pleased with the final findings.

I have two problems that likely contribute to these less than perfect assemblies.

One and probably the least problem is the fact that some of my prepared stock has some very slight twicts and/or warps. Not perfectly flat. Not real bad just not perfect.

The second might have been the direct fallout of the first but then it may have just been poor craftsmanship. Nick put me onto this. Not all of my dadoes and rabbets are exactly the same depth. Some differ by as much as a 16th of an inch (in depth).

Either my table changed along the way or I failed to maintain proper downward pressure on the stock as it passed across the dado. I used feather boards but maybe they weren't set right.

The slight twists in some of my stock may have prevented the stock from being held down properly.

dusty wrote: One and probably the least problem is the fact that some of my prepared stock has some very slight twicts and/or warps. Not perfectly flat. Not real bad just not perfect....

Either my table changed along the way or I failed to maintain proper downward pressure on the stock as it passed across the dado.....
The slight twists in some of my stock may have prevented the stock from being held down properly.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Some of it is technique, and some of it is machine inaccuracy. This is why you see so few of the true artists and perfectionists use tools like these. It is also why they spend such large amounts of time picking the right boards, looking for stresses and irregularities in the grain, and hand planing the boards so they are perfectly flat and square.

Hi Dusty! I want to emphasize a sentence or two in Nick's post. Making a drawer, carcase or box out of wood is certainly not the same thing as making it out of metal or man made stable materials. One of the hardest, and time consuming jobs of working with wood and often the most critical, is flattening and squaring edges and ends of every piece of wood you are going to work with. With perfectly flat and squared work pieces, your geometry will work! (That is unless those pieces were not allowed to reach moisture equilibrium and change shape by themselves.)

But prior to milling, we need to carefully scan the wood we are about to buy and look for outward signs of inner tension. There is, of course the obvious warp, twist and cup that we can see. We can also choose straight grained boards. Other signs of tension also are viewable. The grain can twist (usually does a little) from end to end in a piece of wood. Always try to use a board with as little twist in grain as you can. It is tough when you find flat grain on one end and quartersawn on the other. This is a good board to cast aside - to later make into shorter pieces. There is another thing that should ring alarms of inner tension. If you find 40 or so annual rings on one end and 4 or 5 on the other of a short board, something is wrong! This board was from an extremely stunted tree, or very likely cut at an angle from the inner part of a tree stem to the outer parts. If the grain runs straight in a board like that, it was probably sawn from a crook or sweep in the stem. - - If you want to get more particular - look for boards that contain only heartwood.

Only using wood that has been properly acclimated to you shop is another consideration that should always be practiced. A moisture meter is a very valuable tool for the shop. Also the tables in http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgt ... gtr113.htm are helpful. I have the table 3-4 (Chapter 3) printed and posted above my work bench. Table 12-1 is also informative.

Of the three (warp, twist and cup) Twist is the most difficult to get rid of. A half inch work piece is almost impossible to get out of a two 2 foot, 3/4" board with 1/4" twist, corner to corner.

I'm pretty sure you 520 is perfectly suited for cutting properly prepared and handled boards (work pieces). I am suspect that the same twist that you found in your box is in fact responsible for you dado being off by a 1/16".

In gluing up boxes/carcases and other square things, I have found, like Ed in Idaho, the plastic squares from Rockler are a big help. I think these come with 4 small clamps, which are also valuable.

jg300da wrote:Don't be so hard on yourself. Some of it is technique, and some of it is machine inaccuracy. This is why you see so few of the true artists and perfectionists use tools like these. It is also why they spend such large amounts of time picking the right boards, looking for stresses and irregularities in the grain, and hand planing the boards so they are perfectly flat and square.

Jg300da
Another shot at the Shopsmith. Your right I don't see many artist and perfectionists use Shopsmiths, often the tools they use I consider junk. How can that be? They have used them so long they know every liability in the machine.

They also know from experience which methods to use to mimimize errors.

Take dadoes for example if your crosscutting dadoes in a 6 inch long board in all probability even a twisted board can be held flat enough to make a perfect dado on the table saw. But try cutting a cross dado in a 8 foot board with a table saw. Any twist, warp or mistake will be magnified by the length of the board. That is when they they hand plane dado or use a router and guide.

The same goes with cross cutting most experts simply don't crosscut boards longer than a few feet on a table saw. They use radial arm, guided saw system, miter saw, or even hand saws, panel saw, sliding table saws but few use plain table saws.

I visit a door making shop and a furniture shop both of them have what I consider junk tools. One has a very very old Delta contractor saw that had to have been dropped at least a dozen times and the other what looks to be a home made saw (actually I think it is an old inca saw (tilt table)) yet both these shops turn out perfectionist pieces.

Don't fault the Shopsmith fault technique. But I do agree I think Dusty is being too hard on himself.
Ed

Not another shot at all Ed, just a statement of fact. The further your woodworking skills progress the more you find yourself removed from tools like the Shopsmith, that profess to do many things albeit none of them well enough to be considered a staple in a true crafstmans shop. Even Norm who is nothing more than a fine finish carpenter abandoned his very early on.

But to stay on topic, the type of work Dusty is interested in acheiving requires time, dedication and the practice of many techniques and skills, NOT another SS attachment or jig. Making a perfect fitting drawer requires precision marking tools and the skill to use them. It requires the use of hand planes, and that requires the knowledge to tune and sharpen them. It requires the skill of handcut dovetails, and the many hours spent learning the skill and technique of mastering how the hand dovetail saw is used.
No horizontal boring machine, no overarm pin router attachment, no pneumatic brad nailer and no plywood. No shortcuts.
The most ironic part is that it costs substanially less to purchase the type of tools required to acheive the most coveted results. So Ed, instead of calling the tools of these skilled workers "junk", why not put your sarcasm and your checkbook aside and invest in the dedication and education required to improve your skill level.
Or, you can just go buy another SS accessory. Whatever works for you.

jg300da wrote:Dusty,
Your high school geometry has not failed you. If the diagonals (hypotenuse)are equal, then the sides are square (Pythagorean theory).
When I first started constructing drawers I discovered early on that clamp pressure could make square drawers flex out of square. Easily.
And don't place too much weight in what you see Norm do and say. He's a carpenter, not a fine furniture craftsman or artisan. Craftsman do not use nails or brads in the construction of their pieces, nor do they use speed squares.
If you are entering the realm of heirloom quality pieces I recommend you invest in some high quality measuring and marking tools, and practice their use.
Here's a recommendation]http://www.garrettwade.com/sdx/H35764.jsp[/URL]

Joe

Thank you, Joe for your comments. I must make one thing very clear, however. I absolutely am not entering into the realm of making heirlooms. My skills are impressive only to those that sort of have to be impressed.

I am a hobbiest that happens to love the smell and taste of sawdust and who happens to own a Shopsmith and a bunch of Shopsmith accessories.

I appreciate the references to quality and measuring tools and I have some of them. I can even use them but I am not and never will be into handcut dovetails and the like.

When I was a teenager, I made one of those life decisions that have long lasting impact. I had a chance to enter into an apprenticeship with a fine furniture maker from the old country. I chose not to do that. In my later years I now know that was a big mistake. Now, today I am wondering why I cannot get my corners square.

I will never make fine furniture like I see around from time to time. Some right here on this forum (built by people with Shopsmiths, Charlese immediately comes to mind) but I still enjoy my time in the shop.

I enjoy seeing fine examples of real craftsmanship. I am sure we would all enjoy seeing some of yours. Please considering posting some imagfes here for all of us to enjoy.

Chuck,

Just wanted to take a moment to Thank You for sharing that website. I found it to be "Chuck Full":D of information!


FlashbacPT
John

Thanks Dusty.
Despite your earlier choice it's never too late to add a new challenge and improve your skills. When I took on the dining room set project for my wife I was way out of my league. So I did a lot of reading and ruined a lot of nice lumber until my skill improved enough to try my hand at some heirloom pieces. I'll be the first to admit my work is far from professional, but it has improved greatly over time. I started with a Shopsmith and still use it though I have added a large number of hand tools. It's a good machine and reliable, and is accurate enough for most work.
Good luck with your heirloom pieces.

Here are some pics of work I posted on an earlier thread;

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210366748

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210366757

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210366764

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210448063

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210448071

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210448078

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210448084

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/attachm ... 1210448090

jg300da wrote:Not another shot at all Ed, just a statement of fact. The further your woodworking skills progress the more you find yourself removed from tools like the Shopsmith, that profess to do many things albeit none of them well enough to be considered a staple in a true crafstmans shop. Even Norm who is nothing more than a fine finish carpenter abandoned his very early on.

Actually it was a shot at Shopsmith. While I concede most craft shops do not have Shopsmiths the reason is not that they aren't capable but rather because the craftsman was taught trained on something else. We tend to stay with what we know.

As for Norm abandoning Shopsmith, that had more to do with business and money than machine capabilities. I'm sure if Shopsmith would have came up with the same money that Delta/Porter Cable did Norm would be using Shopsmiths right now. I also feel certain if Dewalt decides Norm should start using Dewalt tools his shop will go yellow. Further if Grizzly or another company out bid Black and Decker for support money we would see the shop manifested into that manufacture's tools.

As for Norm's ability, call him what you want but he is the one earning a good living doing what he wants. To many times we try to box definitions in, like saying a real craftsman doesn't use nails. Nonsense a real craftsman uses whatever he wants to accomplish the job. Some would not use nails if you filled their shop with nails while others would use a nail before they spend another needless minute trying to figure how to do it without a nail.

The judge of a craftsman is not whether he used a nail or not but rather on his design, execution, usability and finish of his product. I have seen some pieces that look super, but can't be used. I have seen some pieces that were never meant to be used because they were made as art. I have seen some pieces that looked terrible but fit exactly the task they were made to do.

But to stay on topic, the type of work Dusty is interested in acheiving requires time, dedication and the practice of many techniques and skills, NOT another SS attachment or jig. Making a perfect fitting drawer requires precision marking tools and the skill to use them. It requires the use of hand planes, and that requires the knowledge to tune and sharpen them. It requires the skill of handcut dovetails, and the many hours spent learning the skill and technique of mastering how the hand dovetail saw is used.
No horizontal boring machine, no overarm pin router attachment, no pneumatic brad nailer and no plywood. No shortcuts.

On this point I tend to agree with you. To many times instead of developing a new skill we often just go buy a new tool. However I also disagree, hand cut dovetails may impress some but to others they are simply unneeded and too slow. Again craftsmanship isn't judged on techniques if so everyone would do everything the same way. Craftsmanship is ability to make a piece that satisfies the wants and the desires of the those paying for the project.

However I don't think Dusty lacks the skills, I think he is observing something we all do. Many times we make assumptions that this will occur and it usually does however when another condition enters the equation things can and often do change. It is not the requirement of precision marking tools, of using something other than a shopsmith, ior whether you use pnematic tools or nails or not. It is a matter of considering all the variables and having developed the techniques to cope with them to make the finished piece.

Lastly if perhaps more people would have used plywood there wouldn't be such a shortage of precious wood. My neighbor is an upholster and he is often commissioned to redo period pieces. Whenever he gets a piece over a hundred year old or older he calls me over to look at it. He had a couch made in the 1700's out of walnut. Let me tell you had the maker used plywood he could have made 5 couches and all would be stronger than the one he made. Using walnut as a corner brace was a total waste of wood. I'm sure conserving wood was the last thing on the craftsman's mind but today I think we can all see the error of not considering it then just as we should today.

The most ironic part is that it costs substanially less to purchase the type of tools required to acheive the most coveted results. So Ed, instead of calling the tools of these skilled workers "junk", why not put your sarcasm and your checkbook aside and invest in the dedication and education required to improve your skill level.
Or, you can just go buy another SS accessory. Whatever works for you.

Actually I didn't call their machines junk what I meant is most people upon seeing them and/or trying to use them would call them junk. Yet in the hands of skilled users they produced perfect results. Why? The user had honed his skills on them. So on that point we agree improve you skill level instead of trying to buy it.

I told this story before but I watched a "CRAFTSMAN" rip an 8 foot board using only a hand saw and it when he finished the board did not need to jointed and he did it nearly as fast as it would take most to setup their saw to make the cut and complete it. Better yet he marked the board using his thumb and pencil and followed the line to perfection. I was so impressed I wanted to buy the board to show to others.

It is not the tool that makes the craftsman it is craftsman that makes a craftsman.
Ed