Mark V Electrical Requirement

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BuckeyeDennis
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by BuckeyeDennis »

That's a very good point about the 120VAC receptacle's current rating, David.

Even after six years of electrical engineering studies, and then another 20 years of design experience, it took a scary incident in my own home to give me a truly visceral feel for the danger of inadequate overcurrent protection.

Back in 2001, my wife and I hired a landscaping contractor to do some work at our place. Among other things, they installed low-voltage landscape lighting. There were four lighting zones, each with its own timer-equipped transformer box. Three of the four transformer boxes were mounted outdoors near the middle of their lighting zones, but placed in the woods surrounding our yard to be discreet. The contractor told me they needed just one 120V 20A circuit to supply all four 12V transformers. I added up the total lighting load to corroborate that, and then added the 20A branch circuit to my load center.

So far, so good. At least until we had some power outages. Every significant power outage required me to go outdoors, open up each individual transformer box, and reset the timer. A real PITA. Not to mention that the same drill was required several times each year as the daylight hours changed. :mad:

To solve that problem, I decided to bypass all the internal transformer-box timers, and control all four of the transformers from a single electromechanical timer switch, which I plugged into a 20A receptacle next to my load center. At time, I couldn't find a timer that was rated for 20A. But the total landscape lighting load was well under 15A, so I installed a generic 15A timer switch similar to the one below. Which worked just fine for the normal load, and now after a power outage I had only one timer to reset. It never even occurred to me that I should substitute a 15A breaker for the preexisting 20A breaker on that circuit.

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (16.99 KiB) Viewed 30092 times

Well, fast forward ten or fifteen years, and my wife had discovered that the outdoor receptacles that were installed for connecting the landscape lighting transformers were also really handy for powering strands of Christmas lights. And many years, she would install just a few more strands of incandescent lights. Until ...

Early one Christmas season, I was downstairs in my shop, and suddenly heard my wife yelling that smoke was coming from the closet where our load center lives. So I ran in to deal with it, opened the closet, and found that the 15A electromechanical timer was a smoking, blackened, melted plastic mess. :eek: As my wife kept adding more Christmas lights, I had completely forgotten that it was just a 15A timer switch. But fortunately, we were home and nearby, so the only damage done was to the cheap timer and to my pride. Under different circumstances, I suppose that our house could have burned down.

For a resistive load like a switch contact, the heat generated is proportional to the square of the electrical current. So at 20A, the heat generated is (20/15)^2 = 1.78 times greater than at 15A. Although the difference in current doesn't sound like a lot, the difference in heat generation is quite large.

Following that wake-up call, I well and truly bullet-proofed the landscape supply circuits. First I installed a second 20A branch circuit, giving one 20A circuit per pair of transformers. Then I installed a 30A power relay in series with each of those branch circuits, with both relays mounted in a metal junction box. Finally, I bought and installed another generic 15A timer, but now it only switches the coil current to those two power relays.

Nowadays, I'm pretty diligent about proper overcurrent protection.

Back to the original topic, Emerson requiring Shopsmith to specify 15A breakers makes a ton of sense. There's no other overload protection for the motor. Without at least specifying reasonable overload protection, Emerson would not only be exposed to warranty expenses for cooked motors, but potentially also to liability claims in the event of fire. The good news is that, unlike my landscape lighting timer, a Mark V is almost never operated unattended.
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JPG
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by JPG »

A missing detail in this discussion is that the original Mark 5 was introduced in early 1950 when most preexisting homes had fused power distribution panels rather than circuit breakers and typically had only a 60A service. In addition they had screw in fuses(Edison base) so proper sizing for the internal house wiring was often ignored(or intentionally increased due to frequent blowing of a properly sized one).

So this was the environment most Mark 5s were installed in. The SS mantra at that time was to be sure to use time delay fuses on the branch circuit the Mark 5 was plugged into. Realize the motor at that time was only 3/4 hp and did not have as much start up torque as the present 1 1/8 hp motors. So the admonition to ALWAYS reduce the speed control setting when powering down was relevant for more than one reason.

Personally I never drop the speed setting on my 1962 Mark 5 BUT it also has a 230v 1 hp A O Smith motor in it and run it on a 230v/20A circuit.

One word of caution here is that the actual inertial load the motor experiences at startup will vary considerably. For instance starting up with the steel sanding disc attached and a high speed setting and using it outdoors with a short robust extension cord(definitely not recommended but actually experienced) will greatly extend the time taken to get out of start mode. Ditto the thickness planer.

I am not disagreeing with previous posts, but think some history helps explain where somethings originated.
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RFGuy
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by RFGuy »

GG0452 wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 9:42 am I upgraded my extension cord to 12 gauge and it is only 25 feet long. AND i will try to remember to turn the speed down before i shut it down.
For me, that is a loooong extension cord. Definitely have a higher gauge extension cord if you are going to place something like a Mark V that far away from an outlet. JMO.
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by RFGuy »

Dennis,

Thanks. Great story, but most importantly I am glad it was quickly discovered and didn't have a worse outcome. I guess, I gotta ask why you didn't install something like an Intermatic Mechanical Time Switch for this application? The cheap plug in switch like you show in the picture above is really only meant for controlling a single table lamp. While they can be used on landscape lighting or Christmas lights, your application sounds more heavy duty than the typical homeowner IMHO. I know these Intermatic switches are expensive, but would be worth it for anyone in a similar scenario. Guessing the combination of the 30A relay, generic timer, weatherproof metal junction box, etc. cost as much as what one Intermatic mechanical switch costs.

After that story, did anyone start calling you "Clark"...you know from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation? ;)
IntermaticSwitch.jpg
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GG0452
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by GG0452 »

I feel that the 25 feet of 12 gauge extension is more than adequate for several reasons. 1. SS recommends 12 gauge wire for a 50 foot extension cord. 2. I ran my Mark v for 40 years using a 50 foot 14 gauge extension cord without any problems. 3. The cord is exposed, lies on the floor, and can be monitored for overheating. The only issue, as i see it, is start up time and that does not seem to be a problem. Heck, my house vacuum runs on 18 gauge wire and get hot every time the vacuum is used. BTW when is first got my Mark V i ran it on a 15 amp fused circuit. That was a pain and why i had a breaker box installed and the 30 amp 10 gauge wire circuit for the SS (and i think at the time local code was 20 amp circuit on 14 gauge wire and now it is 15 amps).
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by chapmanruss »

BuckeyeDennis,

Glad you were home when that happened. Your experience is more common than you might think. Many of you may know I am a retired Firefighter and have been on many fires caused by electrical problems. In David's comments about circuits and outlets and what is allowed by code also brings up possible causes of electrical fires. For a circuit breaker rated at 30 amps it should only have outlets rated the same. If you put a 15 amp rated outlet on a 20 or 30 amp circuit, you are no longer protecting the maximum amperage allowed to flow through that 15 amp outlet. Just like that plug-in timer, most of which do not have a circuit breaker built-in, the amperage going through it can exceed its capacity and that can start a fire.

Using extensions cords is not a no no, but do use one that is rated for the purpose you want to use it for. They are great for those temporary times when you need power at a location not close enough to an outlet. They should not be a substitute for permanent wiring. The more common extension cords are rated at 13 amps or less as they get longer. Plugging that into a 15 amp circuit with a 15 amp load and you are overloading the extension cord.

In our old house I had an Intermatic Mechanical Time Switch wired in to a circuit specifically for Christmas Lights to plug into around our house. It worked great for that purpose.

BuckeyeDennis, have you considered adding Photoelectric Switch, UL Listed Photocell Light Sensors to control the landscape lighting. It would come on at dusk and off at dawn. It would not need to be reset like a timer after a power loss or for fall back, spring forward. When we used low voltage landscape lighting it was controlled by a Photoelectric Switch.
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BuckeyeDennis
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by BuckeyeDennis »

RFGuy wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:10 pm ... I gotta ask why you didn't install something like an Intermatic Mechanical Time Switch for this application?
That definitely would have been the thing to do way back when I installed a timer originally, but I didn't know they existed back then. And internet searches over a 56k dial-up modem were downright painful.

After smoking the cheap timer, I figured that the load with Christmas lights must have been substantially over 15A, and so a 20A circuit would be cutting it too close. The direct-bury wire feeding the outdoor landscape-transformer receptacles was all 12AWG, so a 30A breaker wouldn't have protected them. Hence the dual 20A circuits.

The cost of my solution was actually pretty negligible. I already had two P&B T92 AC-coil relays laying around, and if I hadn't, they still cost only $17 each delivered from Amazon (current price). So the only things I needed to purchase were a standard indoor 4" metal junction box, and a low-power replacement timer to control the relay coils.

BTW, I thought the original National Lampoon Vacation movie was hilarious. But I didn't get your reference to the Christmas Vacation sequel until I Googled it. Turns out that I've never even seen it -- I've gotta fix that!
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by BuckeyeDennis »

chapmanruss wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:44 pm BuckeyeDennis,

Glad you were home when that happened. Your experience is more common than you might think. Many of you may know I am a retired Firefighter and have been on many fires caused by electrical problems. In David's comments about circuits and outlets and what is allowed by code also brings up possible causes of electrical fires. For a circuit breaker rated at 30 amps it should only have outlets rated the same. If you put a 15 amp rated outlet on a 20 or 30 amp circuit, you are no longer protecting the maximum amperage allowed to flow through that 15 amp outlet. Just like that plug-in timer, most of which do not have a circuit breaker built-in, the amperage going through it can exceed its capacity and that can start a fire.

Using extensions cords is not a no no, but do use one that is rated for the purpose you want to use it for. They are great for those temporary times when you need power at a location not close enough to an outlet. They should not be a substitute for permanent wiring. The more common extension cords are rated at 13 amps or less as they get longer. Plugging that into a 15 amp circuit with a 15 amp load and you are overloading the extension cord.

In our old house I had an Intermatic Mechanical Time Switch wired in to a circuit specifically for Christmas Lights to plug into around our house. It worked great for that purpose.

BuckeyeDennis, have you considered adding Photoelectric Switch, UL Listed Photocell Light Sensors to control the landscape lighting. It would come on at dusk and off at dawn. It would not need to be reset like a timer after a power loss or for fall back, spring forward. When we used low voltage landscape lighting it was controlled by a Photoelectric Switch.
Those are some true words of wisdom, Russ.

You remind me of a point that I had intended to make earlier. People often mention the National Electrical Code (NEC) in online discussions such as this one. But what a lot of people don't know is that the specific document in question is NFPA 70 - National Electrical Code. Published by the National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA).

As for using a photoelectric sensor or switch to control our landscape lighting, it would probably take some combination of a sensor and a timer to do what we want. We set the timer to turn on the lights at dusk, but to turn off a little after bedtime, so that we're not consuming electricity needlessly. Ginning up such a thing seems like more trouble than it's worth. But there may well be some internet-of-thing widget on the market these days that could do what I want, without having to roll my own.
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by RFGuy »

BuckeyeDennis wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 3:06 pm
RFGuy wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:10 pm ... I gotta ask why you didn't install something like an Intermatic Mechanical Time Switch for this application?
That definitely would have been the thing to do way back when I installed a timer originally, but I didn't know they existed back then. And internet searches over a 56k dial-up modem were downright painful.

After smoking the cheap timer, I figured that the load with Christmas lights must have been substantially over 15A, and so a 20A circuit would be cutting it too close. The direct-bury wire feeding the outdoor landscape-transformer receptacles was all 12AWG, so a 30A breaker wouldn't have protected them. Hence the dual 20A circuits.

The cost of my solution was actually pretty negligible. I already had two P&B T92 AC-coil relays laying around, and if I hadn't, they still cost only $17 each delivered from Amazon (current price). So the only things I needed to purchase were a standard indoor 4" metal junction box, and a low-power replacement timer to control the relay coils.

BTW, I thought the original National Lampoon Vacation movie was hilarious. But I didn't get your reference to the Christmas Vacation sequel until I Googled it. Turns out that I've never even seen it -- I've gotta fix that!
Dennis,

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time about it, but more trying to highlight this product for anyone who might read this thread so that they know these mechanical timers exist - Intermatic being the most common one in the industry. Typically over a hundred bucks - they last forever and are very safe and durable. Usually find them powering electric water heaters or pool pumps in homes, but they are used in many places for commercial/industrial applications. As a fellow electrical engineer, I like that you created your own solution. I have a relay that I use to switch on multiple flood lights on the front of my house all triggered from a single motion sensor. Nothing wrong with making your own solution as you did. I know you are a fully competent engineer, so I would only call you "Clark" in a joking way. I know you know better, and I hope everyone knows better than to plug so many Christmas lights into one outlet in the way that was done in that movie. That movie is a classic. I will leave you with one of the more memorable quotes from it "Why is the carpet all wet, Todd?" :D
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Re: Mark V Electrical Requirement

Post by RFGuy »

chapmanruss wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:44 pm Using extensions cords is not a no no, but do use one that is rated for the purpose you want to use it for. They are great for those temporary times when you need power at a location not close enough to an outlet. They should not be a substitute for permanent wiring. The more common extension cords are rated at 13 amps or less as they get longer. Plugging that into a 15 amp circuit with a 15 amp load and you are overloading the extension cord.
+1

and a short extension cord for this application is 9 ft, NOT 25ft. IF one is in their own shop and unless it is a gargantuan shop, why run ANY extension cord between a Mark V and an outlet??? For all other cases, like wheeling a Mark V into a driveway, etc. I understand the need for an extension cord, but it must be a beefy one IMHO.
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