Shopsmith Forums

I'll chime in here… this has nothing to do with an "old" manual that is for a machine that they no longer sell. I bought a planer from them about 6 or 7 years ago - a brand spankin' new machine. LOTS of my hard-earned cash went toward it. Then when I see the manual in the box, I couldn't believe it!! Like the original post, it is a stinking photocopy! I did call and complain and whoever was on the other end said they would send me one when they got more printed. (That was a load of hooey! There were no intentions then or now of printing more manuals…*because I'm still waiting.) Folks, a printed "pamphlet" book is not that much of an expense. If the company is on such rough times that they have to sell a photocopy of a manual for the same price as a real, printed manual, then I guess the handwriting is on the wall, because that's just pathetic. Yes, this is a sore subject with me…*one in a long line.

With all this said, I'm sure I'm likely to get flamed for not being a proper Shopsmith fanboy and lauding and upholding everything they do, no matter how shoddy or sloppy. So, flame on.

bkhop wrote:I'll chime in here&#8230]did[/I] call and complain and whoever was on the other end said they would send me one when they got more printed. (That was a load of hooey! There were no intentions then or now of printing more manuals…*because I'm still waiting.) Folks, a printed "pamphlet" book is not that much of an expense. If the company is on such rough times that they have to sell a photocopy of a manual for the same price as a real, printed manual, then I guess the handwriting is on the wall, because that's just pathetic. Yes, this is a sore subject with me…*one in a long line.

With all this said, I'm sure I'm likely to get flamed for not being a proper Shopsmith fanboy and lauding and upholding everything they do, no matter how shoddy or sloppy. So, flame on.

I do not think any one will 'flame' you for having an opinion. It is the perception of what really matters that I would take you to task for!

I understand your 'disappointment' in not getting a pristine copy of the 'manual'.

Disappointment is a long way from unsatisfactory.

If survival means resorting to such extreme measures(photocopies are not all that cheap to produce when you take into account paying someone to do it) than I say please do so - I want them around next time I need something.

Hopefully they will be around 50 yrs from now to send folks a 'regurgitated copy' of a manual for something produced by 3 predecessors ago and out of production for 40 yrs(or more)!

Keep the big picture in view!

FWIW, this applies to both bkhop and ron s

I truly hope that nobody will will consider flaming you for your opinion. It is a shame when someone, or a company, finds it acceptable to give less than 100% to an endeavor. Just before I sold my business and entered semi-retirement I had a conversation regarding hiring employees. The consensus was to establish minimum requirements, interview all applicants, then lower the requirements and expectations. A sad state of affairs but true. I would expect a clearly reproduced manual. With new technology, perhaps on disc, perhaps just a website, but at least clear and precise. Sadly, often consumer instructions are pictographs, no words, just pictures, or in English translated by a professor who does not understand American linguistics.
Ins short, your opinion is noted, you are writing to the choir, and I for one agree completely. But I have learned to lower my expectations.

I have to say that I'm really surprised at they way some of you are defending Shopsmith with this issue. The plain truth is that a seller should always clearly document any knowns defects (both of the above buyers seem to have been surprised with the poor documents). This is especially true where the buyer might reasonably expect the product to be in it's original condition (this would seem to be true for the two cases documented above).

still_waters_43 wrote:I have to say that I'm really surprised at they way some of you are defending Shopsmith with this issue. The plain truth is that a seller should always clearly document any knowns defects (both of the above buyers seem to have been surprised with the poor documents). This is especially true where the buyer might reasonably expect the product to be in it's original condition (this would seem to be true for the two cases documented above).

Ok! I can agree that a new product should have a new manual!

However do not lump that in with a document for a product out of production for over 50 yrs!

If you want an example of a 'new' manual created for that then current product from 50+ years ago I can provide it. It was a 'temporary' document hand typed with no illustrations(pictures).

I most heartily defend ss for their effort in providing ANY information from that era that was produced by their predecessor(three previous firms ago). I am sure few 'original' versions have survived the ownership transitions and relocations.

We are fortunate that there is a community of owners who unselfishly have shared what old documentation they have. I am sure many owners have better copies than ss inc. has.

Be thankful that present technology exists to enable that easy sharing of old 'documents'! That was a pipe dream as few as 15 yrs ago!

You know, this sounds like a project for someone with one of those manuals. During some of the coming hot days of summer and you want to be in the cool, an ambitious and generous person with that info could put it into a pdf file and hope that this person also would have a digital camera to upload similar photos to the document. Then, it could be a small business, providing it for a recovery fee for regular mail and email. So, who wants to make some money to buy parts?

swampgator wrote:You know, this sounds like a project for someone with one of those manuals. During some of the coming hot days of summer and you want to be in the cool, an ambitious and generous person with that info could put it into a pdf file and hope that this person also would have a digital camera to upload similar photos to the document. Then, it could be a small business, providing it for a recovery fee for regular mail and email. So, who wants to make some money to buy parts?

That could happen a lot if that material was not copyrighted. I for one would not copy ss copyrighted material on their forum!

That has not stopped many folks from doing so on other sites.

Many of the older ss manuals etc. were NOT copyrighted.

There is a file size limit on this forum that prevents pdf attachments of any significant size.

If there is a way to work around the file size limitation, I would gladly share what I have.

still_waters_43 wrote:I have to say that I'm really surprised at they way some of you are defending Shopsmith with this issue. The plain truth is that a seller should always clearly document any knowns defects (both of the above buyers seem to have been surprised with the poor documents). This is especially true where the buyer might reasonably expect the product to be in it's original condition (this would seem to be true for the two cases documented above).

Disappointed Shopper/Buyer

Was Shopsmith the seller (or was it Magna) of the items documented in the examples cited above? One was Shopsmith the other was not.

bkhop reports that he bought a brand spankin' new machine (a planer) and it came with a photocopied manual (shame, shame Shopsmith). If this was unsatisfactory, I don't believe he should have accepted it. But he did. Now he is waiting for a manual promised six or seven years ago by a Shopsmith employee (he knows not who) that may not even be working for Shopsmith now. But, bkhop, have you contacted Shopsmith many, many times in the past six years to remind them that they owe you this manual. If not, well...I doubt if anyone other than you remembers unless one of the ladies in customer service wrote herself a note.... "we owe bkhop a manual for his planer" to be deliver upon receipt from the printing company.

I'd send you a copy of mine except that it is copyrighted.

BTW stillwaters...I am really not defending Shopsmith. I am simply stating my opinions. As buyers and users we too have a responsibility in these transactions. We must hold up our end as well and if we do not we should accept the consequences.

PS Back on my soapbox. Have you noticed the long list of User's Manuals that are offered on eBay. Where do you suppose those came from? Someone sold or parted out a machine and did not deliver the manual as part of the sale. Now some poor guy has a machine and no documentation. Does Shopsmith have an obligation to this person to make a manual available...NO I don't think so.

I'll chime in here again. And y'all don't get me wrong - I love Shopsmith and will continue to support them. But on this one issue (selling the 10ER manual), I do feel they are wrong. Well, maybe "wrong" is too strong of a word. But they could certainly handle this better.

I recently got a great deal on a Rockwell/Delta jointer from 1953. That's a brand that has also been through several ownership changes. I found the manual on the OWWM web site, but guess what? Delta has it available for FREE download from their web site as well. Likewise, the manual for my Craftsman jointer from the early 60's (originally manufactured by King Seeley which was purchased by Emerson Electric) can be freely obtained from Emerson or Sears. The manual to my 1980's Craftsman table saw was downloaded for free from Sears. I downloaded manuals to a newer Hitachi router and Delta planer that I purchased used from the manufacturer web sites. Again, free download.

Now, I can understand Shopsmith wanting to charge for the big Mark 5/V manual "package" with the nice binder and page dividers and the self study guide. So I'm not going to fault them for that. But the 10ER manual is a different matter.

Each of the 4 versions I know of are all pretty small. Twenty pages or so, giver or take. The same file that Shopsmith prints out is freely available on many different web sites (OWWM, the Yahoo group, the Gmail account, and many others). I commend Shopsmith, Inc. for offering the 10ER manual, but it would be a much better service if they just listed it as a free download or at least linked to one of the other sites that has it for download. Especially since they did not manufacture nor do they support the 10ER nor is the manual copyrighted. They could still offer a printed and bound copy for sale. If you want Shopsmith to print it, bind it, and mail it to you, I wouldn't expect that for free. But if they're going to charge for it, at least also include all of the Shopsmith Shavings and other ER related documentation to make it a nice package. And let the buyer know that, due to the age of the machine and the loss of original documents, they are photocopies.

I have been disappointed in some of the results I have had trying to get parts and supplies from Shopsmith the last few years. But not with the service or the people at shopsmith. They have always been helpful and worked to meet my needs as best they could. I think we are lucky there is still a Shopsmith to call. I hope they will survive and grow again when the new unit is out. But in these economic conditions it will not be easy.