Shopsmith Forums

Posted: **Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:34 pm**

I keep reminding that unlike the need for seat belts and air bags, tablesaw safety is seldom a life threatening situation (Yes, I know in some cases it can be especially if he is alone and blacks out). The other big difference is that on a tablesaw you rarely have to worry about another user running a stop sign or red light, crossing a centerline or rear-ending you. It is normally just you and your saw. You only have to worry about the stupidity of one person... You... You need to be careful, not defensive of the stupidity of others.
Frankly due to Gass's greed and desire for a self enriching monopoly, I would get a real kick out of it if other simpler technologies began popping out of the woodwork that made his whole system completely obsolete and tossed him in the dumper.

Heck, a company like Shopsmith who would be hurt or destroyed by his selfish desires might be just the the company to do the job...

Posted: **Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:41 pm**

Ed in Tampa wrote:Actually I'm at more of a transistion, in fact at the very beginning. But I see major changes being made in commerical production shops. Most are getting rid of the their "tablesaw" for two reasons OSHA and Insurance. They are going to panel saws, guided tool systems and autofeed or sliding table systems. All of these keep the operator well clear of the blade and almost totally eliminate accidental contact between flesh and blade.

From this they are realizing increased production rate, lower production cost and material savings.

The problem is most of this is now stalled because at about the same time the Insurance industry and OSHA started their clamp down the American economy took it's nose dive and many shops that were considering change have now closed or have such low business they have left workers go which eliminated the workers comp insurance situation.

However European shops use the bandsaw for most ripping and guided tool or panel saw technology for crosscutting.

Another consideration is dust and air quality. In many of the new European market machines do close to 99% dust capture across the tool range (sanders-saws).
European legislation also had a major impact on finishing and chemicals used in finishing. I'm told you can go any place within a Europeam shop and not be required to wear a face mask filter. Gone are dangerous chemical based contact adhesives, and carriers in assembly, finish and stains.

As I said these changes should excite those of us that are concerned about accidents and or air quality issues. I understand now that through some of the things developed in Europe people with serious respiratory issues can enjoy woodworking as a hobby.
I also understand that some of the new methods enable physically handicapped people to enjoy the hobby. No longer is the need to have the ability to tose full sheets of sheet stock around or to reach across wide tables to retrieve pieces of wood. Much of the woodworking can be done sitting down, or from a fixed position and some of the new methods actually enable the blind to enjoy the hobby.

Ed,

Had to chime in here. Benjamin Franklin once said or at least quoted someone else "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.".

The free market should determine if and when all table saws are eliminated not the government.

This says nothing of the points you make regarding the potential benefits of the government forcing those types of changes upon a free people. The question is are we to be free or are we to be surfs(spel?). I think we are well down the road to surfdom.

My 2 cents

Jack

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:56 am**

Gene Howe wrote:There is technology out there, other than the Gass unit, that works as well and does not destroy the blade and cause one to buy a new unit. Wouldn't be a huge investment for a saw mfr. Or to be added later by the consumer.
Take a look.
Whirlwind

Thanks for the link, Gene. As long as there is a competitive product to the Saw Stop I could probably support the issue. The key element is "retrofit".

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:21 am**

paulmcohen wrote:Has anyone noticed the new Mark 7 and SPT's have had subtle changes lately. The Bandsaw cover no longer has knobs, you need a tool to remove the cover. The rear hubs on the headstock are now covered, there is a cover for the drill press to cover the bit, possibly the new riving knife, the PowerPro speed confirm and there are others.

According to Mike Young these were all put in to comply with Canada and European safety rules. I actually like some and hate others.

I asked the same thing and got the same response regarding the bandsaw cover. I was on the lookout for any subtle updates. The hubs on the bandsaw are easy enough to swap out, so thats no big deal.

I really like the plastic cover on the rear hub since I have brushed my hand against it while looking for the off switch.

The euroguard for the drill press has been advertised for a while. not too expensive, but should be easy enough to retrofit a router guard to work in a similar way if you have one.

Two things I found interesting:
1) The rear hub guards are not shown in any of then new photos for the powerpro.
2) More importantly, there is no section for safety in the docs regarding the Mark 7.

If you were to go with the Whirlwind style safety triggers, it would be easy to adapt them to virtually all of the guards. They could then be the safest "sytem" on the market.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:43 am**

claimdude wrote:Ed,

Had to chime in here. Benjamin Franklin once said or at least quoted someone else "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.".

The free market should determine if and when all table saws are eliminated not the government.

This says nothing of the points you make regarding the potential benefits of the government forcing those types of changes upon a free people. The question is are we to be free or are we to be surfs(spel?). I think we are well down the road to surfdom.

My 2 cents

Jack

I don't disagree with anything you said. I think Gass is a bottom feeder and cares nothing about safety or protecting woodworkers but is only trying to have the government force this so he makes tons of money. His invention was summarily rejected by the manufactures and by most consumers but so he is trying to legislate it into existence.

I'm excited because I think this is going to happen. In the US people refuse to be involved with critical thinking and instead want to be cared for and given things they think they are naturally entitled to. This is the age of entitlement.

If this does happen I believe other manufactures will be FORCED to develop new technologies something they haven't done in a long time since they are maintain mode.

I think the outcome will be that the big space hogging monster called 52" Tablesaw weighing in at over 400 lbs will be pushed out of the shop. And nearly 256 sq feet of shop space (8ft clearance around saw) will be freed up.

Posted: **Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:35 am**

I think there are a lot of good points here. I hope the CPSA is smart enough to have veteran woodworkers on their panel and study what works (and doesn't work) in other countries and not give into the pressure from one manufacturer, hype, or lawsuit that went wrong. Any requirement where one and only one technology or only one person person or company has the rights and patents should be avoided.

If Gass or any other manufacturer really cared about safety they would NOT charge exorbitant licensing fees for their technology, they would give the rights freely. Mercedes, Volvo, and Ford all do this with their safety technologies. This is why seat belts and airbags became so prevalent so quickly. Gass just wants to make a quick buck and use the CPSA to be the muscle for extorting money from the major manufacturers.

Shop safety is a growing issue and concern for both professionals and hobbyists alike. Shopsmith should probably focus on this aspect and make their product the safest on the market. This could help sell the higher price tag. The introduction of new and safer tools should be seen as an opportunity by manufacturers to "Build a better mousetrap", not be a reaction to government pressures and legal defensiveness.

Heck, call it the SafetySmith and have public demonstrations of just how safe they can be.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:27 pm**

Airbags spent decades in development and languishing as a sideline option that people chose not to order. They didn't become prevalent until they were mandated by the government. None of it was ever given away.

Seatbelts, particularly the 3-point type was given away by Volvo. And resisted hard by other companies, like Ford. Seatbelts did not become prevalent until they were mandated by the govenment.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:37 pm**

I don't agree that the mandating of seat belts and airbags are in the same category.

Keeping within our automotive theme, government regulations requiring Saw Stop technology would be comparable to requiring that all automobiles be fitted with breathalyzers that must be blown into periodically to start and keep a car running. Blood analyzers to ensure the driver isn't under the influence of other chemicals. How about a series of of other tests to ensure the driver isn't sleepy, is in a calm mood, in good health, both mind and body?

In the end people who deliberately refuse to use the correct safety equipment and procedures must be responsible for their actions. The manufacturers are responsible for building a safe product that will perform to specifications, not for the actions of idiots. Otherwise we might as well hang it up, tools are dangerous, the only way to legislate out every possible way to do some damage is to ban them all.

This isn't about safety, it is nothing more than yet another case of greed and one man's willingness to say or do whatever is necessary to build a fortune.

Troy

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:50 pm**

foxtrapper wrote:Airbags spent decades in development and languishing as a sideline option that people chose not to order. They didn't become prevalent until they were mandated by the government. None of it was ever given away.

Seatbelts, particularly the 3-point type was given away by Volvo. And resisted hard by other companies, like Ford. Seatbelts did not become prevalent until they were mandated by the govenment.

So the way to get consumers to pay for what they do not want is to get the government to mandate them.

I believe that is saw stop's goal.

Trouble is not everyone wants it!

IMHO let those who want it buy it, and leave the rest alone.

IMHO getting individuals to handle risk responsibility is not achieved by mandating that hazards be eliminated. With freedom of choice comes the taking of risks seriously and responsibly.

I vote for personal responsibility, not governmental mandates.

Sadly not all individuals understand that they need to be responsible.

If they get hurt, they are responsible.

If they are ignorant of the hazards, they are responsible for undertaking risks while being ignorant of those risks. Sorta of like the ignorance of the law not being an 'excuse'!

Now if the government is responsibly concerned re risky behavior by ignorant folks, then instruction is a reasonable action.

Posted: **Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:52 pm**

foxtrapper wrote:Airbags spent decades in development and languishing as a sideline option that people chose not to order. They didn't become prevalent until they were mandated by the government. None of it was ever given away.

Seatbelts, particularly the 3-point type was given away by Volvo. And resisted hard by other companies, like Ford. Seatbelts did not become prevalent until they were mandated by the govenment.

Ford put in seat belts, recessed center steering wheel, padded dash and padded visors in the 1956 Ford and pushed the safety angle hard. It was a terrible sales year for them...

One thing that a lot of people forget about is that when folks get in cars or on cycles and ignore safety we "ALL" pay the price. Few people have the level of insurance or personal funds to pay for years of life support etc. When they cannot pay we all do. When an insurance company has to pay out millions for one client that comes out of our pockets not the insurance company's...
When someone says "I am only risking myself", they are wrong...

.

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