Shopsmith Forums

JPG40504 wrote:The 'system' does have systemic problems!

Far too many people (School Board) involved and too much Federal Government (DOE) involvement.

Do a major downsize of the DOE (also the EPA while you are at it) and turn the funds over to the states. The monies saved by downsizing the DOE should pay for a lot of books and teachers.

Dealing with local school boards might be another problem all together. I don't know how strong the unions are within education. I am afraid too strong. This may be why substandard teachers with tenure are hard to deal with.

Pay for teachers needs to be considered as part of the problem too. If we want a strong, high ranking educational system, it is not going to come cheap. Teachers are professionals and should be paid like professionals but only as long as they remain professional.

You want to rant? I can rant for a long time on this subject. If you need a reason to rant longer, let us talk about the trade schools (Industrial Arts).

dusty wrote:There was a time when students had to make a decision about whether or not they were going to pursue a 'profession'. Going on to college meant doctor, lawyer, merchant, chief. Now it seems to mean four more years without needing to get a real job. Student loans help to make paying jobs unnecessary. Now, adding insult to injury, the President is negotiating 'forgiveness' for unpaid student loans.

Loan forgiveness is a real and meaningful thing that shouldn't be dismissed as pure hippy crap (not saying that you are). Student loans are the only thing you can't default out from underneath of (again, not saying thats its good to be able to escape your debts).

In reality though, when you talk about stimulating an economy on real way to do it is to make more money available to the younger population that is willing to spend it but unable to. Student loans become a huge burden when you start considering buying a house, starting a family, etc. it tips the equation away from "just find a job" to "I need to find a job that pays enough to compensate for the things it will cost me to be able to do the job (ie: daycare, transportation, etc)". In addition, it makes working class professions that benefit from college education (ie: teacher, mental health, etc) less attractive because the wage is so low that you don't get much after you pay your loans.

As a side note, there are forms of loan forgiveness already in place in certain circumstances. The rules for it are pretty strict and make it thoroughly unattractive for most folks.

Also, consider the fact that the GI bill, in a way, is a form of loan forgiveness.

Son - in -law with Bachlors and 3 Masters all on student loans. Can't get a job in this country. He's overly qualified to work at the retails stores or burger joint of which he is willing to work. Can't qualify to teach in school as he is over qualified, again. He'll be retired before he can pay off his students loans. Getting a job is not an option, but he can borrow more money for another nonpaying degree. Bachelors in physics, Masters in Stats, Masters in BioMed, Masters in Anesthiology. Of close to 1000 apps, no one will even interview him. So, how's he going to pay back the money?

Daughter about to get her law degree and at least $60k in bills. This couple can't be rid of these debts with Chapter 11 or 13. They want to pay back, but no jobs exist to get them started. They need experience, but no one will give them that opportunity. Locally, Target is looking for employees for the holiday season, but won't give these two young people an hours worth of work. So, it is NOT the educational system, teachers or unions. Unions have helped many folks get jobs. What I don't like about unions is that you must pay union dues in some places even if you are not a member or don't want to be.

CEO's look at the bottom dollar all the time. They don't want to spend a penny to make business and want all the income to be pure profit. Wrong thinking! There is and always has been a cost of doing business, be it time or other expense. Labor is the most expensive part of industry, but if you have folks employed, they are paying into the tax base, buying your goods and services and keeping the economy going, no matter how slow. The reason for offshore production is to save on labor dollars. If the laborer gets sick, he/she is dismissed with no recourse. Someone else who was barely existing is now employed in the place of the dismissed. This kind of thinking started in the 1990's with the computers replacing manpower. We tried hard to reduce manpower and automate repetitive motions. Was part of that regime in the 1980's and 1990's. Yes, we saved money on manpower alone. Of all the people dismissed, we replaced only a few with IT professionals. And, I worked for the DOD. OK, off my soapbox.

I would not be involved in any conversation about student loans if I thought that the 'borrowed funds' were used strictly for educational purposes but I have good reason to believe that that is not always the case.

All too often, the borrowed funds are spent on general living expenses and fun times at the college pub.

Loans for books and tuition for fine. Fun and good times are IN MY OPINION inappropriate use of those loans.

dusty wrote:I would not be involved in any conversation about student loans if I thought that the 'borrowed funds' were used strictly for educational purposes but I have good reason to believe that that is not always the case.

All too often, the borrowed funds are spent on general living expenses and fun times at the college pub.

Loans for books and tuition for fine. Fun and good times are IN MY OPINION inappropriate use of those loans.

While its easy to point the finger at "fun times at the pub", as well as similar things, the reality is that general living expenses is a reasonable thing to be covered by student loans. We have a choice as an individual and a country to decide whether we expect people to work while going to school (split focus, slower pace, perhaps lower grades, etc) or to fully dedicate to school and get into the workforce faster. In addition, if you allow people to fully focus on school they can take more advantage of activities like collegiate clubs and such.

Those things seem un-necessary, but in addition to my day-to-day job I also do college recruiting and such for my company at my alma mater. We specifically look for the people that don't just go to class, but those who really go above and beyond with their involvement. Student clubs, topical extracurricular projects, etc are they keys for students to bubble up in the resume stack. While I fully respect those who work to support themselves through college, those who don't end up having better grades and are able to be more involved.

damagi wrote:While its easy to point the finger at "fun times at the pub", as well as similar things, the reality is that general living expenses is a reasonable thing to be covered by student loans. We have a choice as an individual and a country to decide whether we expect people to work while going to school (split focus, slower pace, perhaps lower grades, etc) or to fully dedicate to school and get into the workforce faster. In addition, if you allow people to fully focus on school they can take more advantage of activities like collegiate clubs and such.

Those things seem un-necessary, but in addition to my day-to-day job I also do college recruiting and such for my company at my alma mater. We specifically look for the people that don't just go to class, but those who really go above and beyond with their involvement. Student clubs, topical extracurricular projects, etc are they keys for students to bubble up in the resume stack. While I fully respect those who work to support themselves through college, those who don't end up having better grades and are able to be more involved.

This is all well and good but don't turn to the Government for 'forgiveness' later. Spend your own money for 'your own fun times'. Don't expect me to.

I would suggest vouchers for books/labs etc and a direct pay to the school for tuition.

When you borrow money the lender loans it to you and you borrow it with the understanding that you will pay it back. That's why it's called a loan.

If the lender knew you were not going to pay it back do you thnk they would give it to you?

In my opinion (and it's worth what you paid for it) if you borrow money and do not pay it back you should be held liable for it. If you do not pay it back you have stolen it. You sign a contract for money you borrow, I have never seen one that says if things get though for you it's ok not to pay us back.

A better way is to not borrow it in the first place. Get a job and pay as you go. Why would you want to start out your post school life already in the hole? This thinking of I can borrow and borrow and borrow and then walk away is nuts!

dusty wrote:I would suggest vouchers for books/labs etc and a direct pay to the school for tuition.

That's how it's supposed to work! And it does with where my daughter goes to school at.

When I first got into teaching thirty years ago, social studies teachers were a dime a dozen and the price was going down fast! I was able to receive a loan to go back to school to work on a science endorsement. If I was able to teach for three years, the loan was forgiven. Having the science endorsement made me marketable. As a result, I didn't have to pay back the loan.

I'm going to stop writing on this subject now. I've had to delete my other comments five time before posting this.

BPR

ryanbp01 wrote: When I first got into teaching thirty years ago, social studies teachers were a dime a dozen and the price was going down fast! I was able to receive a loan to go back to school to work on a science endorsement. If I was able to teach for three years, the loan was forgiven. Having the science endorsement made me marketable. As a result, I didn't have to pay back the loan.
BPR

Now that type of loan forgiveness I can get onboard with, it makes sense. It gets people to learn a "new" skill that is in need and gets people into areas that need good teachers. That is not walking away from your obligations that is paying them back by serving in an area of need.

Good teachers are hard to find and underappreciated and bad ones seem to be in abundance and overrepresented right now. I think that some of the new teachers would be much better if they had good mentors when they start instead of just giving them to whoever is next in line. BTW my sister is a math and science teacher (6, 7, and 8th grades) so much of my information comes from "the front lines".

I became eligible for the GI Bill after 6 years of service during the Viet Nam "conflict". I was honored to serve and grateful for the educational opportunity. Service to the country (in one form or another) can be a way to pay for an education. And such service is an education in and of its self.