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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:51 am
by paulmcohen
tomsalwasser wrote:Perhaps you've been reading lately about right to work laws, most recently in Michigan. These laws forbid labor unions from requiring workers to join the union as a condition of employment. Are unions so desperate that they need to force people to join? Looking forward to getting an ear full from both sides on this issue.
I don't believe anyone is forced to join the union, in non-right-to-work states you are force to pay union dues even if you don't belong.
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:54 am
by paulmcohen
Gene Howe wrote:Fred, for me it was a matter of principle. Any person with a reasonable amount of common sense and intellectual acuity is capable of discussing his/her working conditions and salary with his employer or employer's representative. The coercive tactics of unions are abhorrent and an affront to any rational thinker.
Union membership does not always (if ever) equal more money in the employee's pocket, over time. Especially when dues and strikes are figured in. A safe assumption would be that a non-union worker in a right to work state would realize a good bit more in his pocket over his working life.
I applaud MI for giving employees the right to make choices that reflect their values and self interests.
The data shows that when adjusted for cost of living and paying union dues, workers in non-right-to-work states make more money. Unemployment rates are much lower in right-to-work states.
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:04 am
by paulmcohen
dforeman wrote:I kind of get that this is a sticky subject here. Personally, I can see both the positive and negatives of Unions. Both subjects already being addressed here in safety of working conditions vs the ability to keep the job moving and working efficiently.
I actually belong to two Unions. One by choice and the other, well, not so much.
A couple of years ago, our governor signed an agreement with the State Employee's Collective Bargaining Unit (essentially the State of Maryland Employees Union) requiring that all employees (regardless of membership or not) pay dues. So, we get funds deducted from our pay whether we like it or not. Now a little in their defense, they do negotiate yearly with the governor on the budget concerning pay rates and such. But, for the most part that is really all they do.
I am also a member of the MPMO (Motion Pictures Machine Operators Local) which is part of the IATSE (International Association of Theatrical Stagehands Ensemble). I've worked on and off part time for many years now in a lot of the theatre chains around the Baltimore Area. Initially I had no intentions of joining but several years ago I was kind of screwed over by the theatre chain I worked for at the time. The local stepped in and negotiated an agreement on my behalf, so I wound up joining. But anyway, that still does not relieve the employee of competence or individual responsibility to do the work. They will work with you and help you when needed but they will also not hesitate to remove/replace you if you can't fulfill the obligations of the position or the employer (it makes the local look bad). The other thing I do like about the IATSE is that they will also strive to educate and certify their membership (certain equipment and tasks legally require certified operators) at the union’s expense. The way they perceive this is the more capable the membership is in full filling the work needed locally the better Baltimore looks as a place to do business and supply labor (sort of like having a subcontractor/temp service for each city throughout the US). And thus, removes the burden of training by the employers. Or, possibly travel if they have to ship labor in from other locations around the country. So, in essence you get something back from the local for payment of your dues (training, certification, job negotiation, and sometimes even health coverage or pension benefits). My point being, in this case you actually get something in return for being a union member and paying dues (not a guarantee that a screw up or incompetence will not get you fired).
The problem with what you describe is government unions, where the union dues are used to keep the people in power they bargain with. This is what government workers now make substantially more then private workers and have better benefits and retirement packages and the government (city, state and federal) is going broke. The cost of these lavish benefits are not paid by the current officials they negotiate with but some distant time in the future. Everything being discussed is why private union membership is the lowest since record keeping and government unions is the highest.
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:14 am
by dusty
Like everything else in life, you cannot lump all unions experiences together and you cannot lump all non-union experiences together.
Furthermore, the characteristics of a union in a steel town are different than those of a union in a cow town.
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:05 am
by JPG
dusty wrote:Like everything else in life, you cannot lump all unions experiences together and you cannot lump all non-union experiences together.
Furthermore, the characteristics of a union in a steel town are different than those of a union in a cow town.
How about them thar bedroom communities? They gots 'unions'?:D
There IS a pun in there!;)
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:24 am
by Gene Howe
Got it, JPG
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:36 am
by heathicus
JPG, you're so punny!
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:34 pm
by Ed in Tampa
dusty wrote:Is that good or bad?
In your examples - do these make for good economic conditions or do they inappropriately drive up costs?
Dusty
There is good and bad in all of it. If men of integrity are not in charge in the company, workers will get shafted and everything will be about profit and who has the most power. Likewise if men of integrity are not in charge of the union they will drive up labor costs and do everything they can to cut into the profit.
Same in congress when men of integrity serve this country benefits, when men of no scrupples serve this country is weakened. As society has integrity benefit programs help those in true need. When the society laughs at intergrity people try to get as much as they can for as little effort as possible.
Someone mentioned Bethlehem Steel one of the biggest steel companies in the world and it is gone today. What caused it's demise? Corrupt management and corrupt unions. The company took profit instead of updating and developing new techniques. People were put into position not because of their capabilities but because of their pedigree (college).
Soon the upper managment was filled with opportunitistic bean counters.
On the union side they forced the company to keep men that should have been fired for all kinds of reasons. They forced the company to have more people than were needed to do most jobs. And they forced the company when it had to lay off to get rid of youngest rather than the worthless. The Unions resisted new technology requiring the company keep the same number of men that was required for the old method for the new.
End result both the company and the union are responsible for the demise of steel industry and Bethlehem Steel in general. They forced up prices, they stalled on using new techniques, and cut down on productivity.
The problem isn't unions or management. It is
integrity and all that goes with it.
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:38 pm
by tomsalwasser
This article in the Chicago Tribune summarized the Michigan right to work law just passed.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012 ... union-dues
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:19 pm
by swampgator
paulmcohen wrote:I don't believe anyone is forced to join the union, in non-right-to-work states you are force to pay union dues even if you don't belong.
When I went to Cleveland, OH, in 1967, some places of employment you had to be a member of the union. And, you had to pay union dues. As a condition of employment, you had to sign paperwork as a member of the union. Not sure that all places were that way, but in the auto industry, the castings where my step-mom worked and at W. W. Sly Mfg. I had to agree to union membership, dues and rules. Since then, much has changed, but for 18 months, until the great LBJ gave me a full paid trip to Nam, that's the way it was for all that I worked with and new in the industry. Barbers could not work in that city without being members of a union. Like Ed expressed earlier, it has both good and bad.
Along our bustling small city, some folks get well paid, but the top dollar to be made by a journeyman electrician is about $14 per hour. Same for plumbers, construction journeymen and other similar trades. Starting wage for these trades is from minimum wage to $8 per hour. No unions. You get paid $8 per hour at one the burger joints as well. However, Walmart has a way to skirt the minimum wage. If you are employed under 39 hours per week, you are considered part time and not given the minimum wage. They can pay you want they want. Waitresses and waiters nominally get about $3 to $4 per hour and the rest is made in tips. That's ok if you live at home with mom and dad. Not a career.