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Gee, we used to have a nation with a government.
Now we have a government with its subjects.

U.S.A., 2013, paying the price of apathy.

heathicus wrote:I haven't had any E-10 related problems myself, but I know a Harley mechanic that has an independent shop and another guy that has an ATV repair business and both say that most of their business these days comes from ethanol damage to the fuel system.

But even if ethanol doesn't do damage, I find it incredibly stupid to convert food to gasoline when there are so many hungry people in the world and so much oil buried under it.

I know of a lot of sharp mechanics that speak of finding problems and I must assume that they know what they are talking about. It is just that I have not had any problems from it personally. I also know a lot of guys that look for an easy answer for anything they can't figure out. Many just suffer from what I call "extreme extrapolation". You know... if a red car hits a cat and kills it they jump to the opinion that all red cars are cat killers.
Now I did run into a tight chainsaw gas cap like Art did and fixed it the same way. Come to think of it, it was on a Poulan-Pro too. Kind of stupid of the makers to use such a material on a new saw. E-10 has been around for a very long time to not think any better than to use a vulnerable material on a new saw.
Reminds me of my wood furnace... I generally like it but it has a couple of bad features that I and others have pointed out to them in writing in the past but after years they still have not corrected the problems on the new ones they are making. These are not major redesign factors. I can correct them on mine for no cost and so could they but the maker just can't be bothered to correct them on new production.

Two things on the ethanol... Very little of the corn that we grow here in the corn belt is food grade corn. Some goes to livestock feeds and a lot of it goes into other products including plastics. An ever increasing amount of ethanol does not come from corn at all. Much of it is other forms of bio-mass including from such sources as switch grass, corn stalks, wood chips etc. Anything with a reasonable sugar content.
Having said that I am not really a super fan of alcohol fuels. I think a lot of folks are in for a big surprise. Many have been stuck in the past for so long that science has moved so far ahead of what they think are our limits in other areas. There are many much better answers than ethanol or big oil either one. The trouble is in this country we are far too good at closing our eyes to a lot of things and saying that "that won't work" and ignoring the fact that many of those things are in place and working in other parts of the world.

Rambling again...


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Specific gravity of gasoline is .739 at 60 degrees
Specfic gravity of E-85 is .788 at 60 degrees.

So, they will not seperate as the rumor is.

Ethanol must be 200 proof to be sold for use with gasoline.
It is poisoned with some gas when it leaves the plant with
the tranport truck. So, dont hijack a load thinking you will get
some hot firewater...........

Go to wikipedia and type in ethanol fuel for a lot more info.

The engineer people that i have talked to about this say you have to
look at btu per gallon to understand the mileage thing. more btu per gallon
equals more mileage

BTU PER GALLON


natural gas 75,000
e-100 ethanol 76,000
e-85 ethanol 81,800
e-10 ethanol 111,836
regular gasoline 114,000
winter grade gas 112,500
#2 diesel fuel 140,000
Winter grade is what we have to have in the north country to be able to
start vehicles in our weahter.....

I did not look up hydrogen for btu but, i do know that it is way, way below
natural gas......

In my automotive days i never seen an e-10 or e-85 damage an enigne
that was designed to run on those fuels. I have heard the 2-cycle people
talk a lot about fuel related damage but do not know how much is really fact.

The local car racers here all use e-85 fuel because it is cheaper than racing fuel. Also has a high octane rating so , enignes do not ping, spark knock, and cause engine damage. They have to run a lot bigger carb jets to compensate for the less btu.........

In conclusion,,,,,,, you will get worse mileage with e-fuels, but, cleaner air.
Is it worth using all that corn to make it???? that is for another discussion....
now, back to some woodworking

Just remember, however, that some car manufactures say that if you use E-85 you will void your warranty.

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Farmer look at post 18 in this thread how about taking a crack at my hard starting lawn tractor.

heathicus wrote: But even if ethanol doesn't do damage, I find it incredibly stupid to convert food to gasoline when there are so many hungry people in the world and so much oil buried under it.

It's even more complex then just converting food to oil - zillions of acres of pastureland has been converted to corn production to try and keep up with the increased demand for corn...not only is this a major shift in the use of rangelands but it has substantial negative impacts on the wild critters that normally share rangelands with cattle. In many part of the Country, rangelands become seasonal wetlands during the wet time of year, hosting millions of migratory waterfowl and are critical breeding grounds for amphibians. In addition, rangelands also host deer and other mammal species. Large-scale conversion to corn production is not only a major land use shift but is having profound effects on the critters dependent on these pasturelands. While the heavily subsidized corn producers wouldn't see eye-to-eye with me, this whole ethanol deal is a bum deal on numerous fronts. Don't expect it to change anytime soon thanks to the power of lobbyists.

We have a successful, fairly large small engine repair shop as well as selling many brands of power equipment. Our mechanics recommend not using ethonol, not because problems are inherant. Mostly because there are less problems. The biggest problem is old fuel. Octane drops significantly with age. We had a large Stihl chainsaw cease after a year. The stihl rep took the fuel and poured it on the floor and tried to light it with a match...not able to. He then took fresh fuel and did the same and it ignited immediately. Facts are that many homeowners don't maintain equipment and any recommendation one can make to minimize potential problems is benificial.

Ed in Tampa wrote:Farmer
Okay I got one for you since you are good at diagnostics from being told what the machine does.
I have a Toro Lawn Tractor about 12 years old. This last year it has become hard to start when the engine is cold. It will crank and crank and finally it will catch and start. The exhaust is wet sprays a nasty mix on the wall the exhaust is pointed at and it is a light gray color. After this start the engine starts with almost no cranking.

I changed the spark plug no help. I have sprayed the carb with starter fluid no help. Once started the exhaust is dry and it starts with no problem. I'm in Florida and the machine is garage kept so it is the temp of the garage when I try to start it. 80-90 degree range

Well I had to mow the lawn right before I put up the Christmas decorations and the thing started instantly 60-70 degree range. Now remember it starts instantly when hot.

When starting I put the throttle in start position, full throttle with auto choke and begin cranking. I have tried in to start in the run position choke off throttle full on. And in the slow idle again choke off and throttle is idle position. Nothing helps just crank crank crank until a sputter and then a running engine.

Other than changing oil, cleaning and replacing the air filter and normal maintance I haven't done a thing to the machine. This problem started this year for the first time.
Any guesses???????

Not really enough information but the first thing I would check is to be absolutely sure that the choke was closing "completely". Next I would suspect the fuel pump if it has one.
Is it a float carb or a diaphragm? If a diaphragm it may need a new one. In many of those part of the diaphragm serves as a flap type check valve for the in carb fuel pump.
What is the model of the unit?
I wouldn't worry about the exhaust spray, just stand a piece of cardboard against the wall.


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robinson46176 wrote:Not really enough information but the first thing I would check is to be absolutely sure that the choke was closing "completely". Next I would suspect the fuel pump if it has one.
Is it a float carb or a diaphragm? If a diaphragm it may need a new one. In many of those part of the diaphragm serves as a flap type check valve for the in carb fuel pump.
What is the model of the unit?
I wouldn't worry about the exhaust spray, just stand a piece of cardboard against the wall.


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I mentioned the wet gas as I think it proves there is plenty of gas, also the starting fluid did not help. The Carb is one of those new ones that has a electric solenoid on the bottom fuel bowl. I'm told it is for EPA air standards and adjusts the main jets.

The engine is a 15 hours Briggs and Straton overhead valve single cylinder.

If the engine is has started once in the last few days it will start instantly. If the engines has sat a week it will require constant cranking until it starts. Hot it starts and in cooler weather it starts.