Shopsmith Forums

davebodner wrote:QUOTE=JPG40504]Why?:) Which post(s)?

Let's start with the subject line. Please don't forward anything to everyone you know. That's spam. I can't imagine that even 10% of the people I know would be interested in any one thing I might have to say.

I think IDCook has critiqued the original post. The US experiment wasn't newly created out of whole cloth. It represented a continuation of ideas developed over centuries. Most European monarchs weren't absolute tyrants--they were accountable to constituents. Certainly not to the extent we think of today. But, then, neither was the US. The electorate in the newly formed US was only a minority of residents, mostly limited to land-owning white men of the right religion. The American Revolution managed to lop off the top of the pyramid of power, but the power structure within each state remained mostly unchanged. What was presented is a child's-eye view that doesn't stand up historically.

Then there's the bogus Stalin quote. No way would he have said that. It's too complimentary of the US.

Of course what set me off was the contention that the Left is responsible for all that's bad in America today. I'll admit I reacted a bit emotionally to that post--and others like it in other threads. The continuing attempt to vilify large portions of the US is tiresome.

The saddest part is the view that the US is less worthy than we used to be. Some things may be worse. But many are better. It's easy to view the past through rose-colored glasses. But, we've overcome serious challenges in our recent past. I get as frustrated with our political process as you do (though we disagree on the causes or the proper actions). But, notwithstanding any mistakes we've made in the past or the present, I'm still proud of us.[/quote]

Thank You for that response.

This illustrates what IMHO makes 'us' exceptional(at least one point). The ability to discuss dissenting ideas(opinions if you will) without going berserk!

Not to say that is not possible other places as well.

But it is the sum of more 'points' that does make exceptional an appropriate adjective.

What concerns me as one who has survived long enough and with sufficient memory is that there has been a gradual deterioration of much of the good stuff. No I will not delve into identifying them since again it is a matter of opinion whether that 'stuff' is good or bad!

Many of those who lament the 'progress' here are diligent in 'protecting' what we have. Tis too late to get it back.

I for one do not agree with much of what has been said here, but do not think of myself as qualified to judge any one else.

As has been done in this thread, it is imperative that misconceptions/errors/whatever are identified and more light shed upon the subject.

I do not know if the Stalin 'quote' was real, but it is entirely plausible. Whether he actually said it or not(or any other despot said it) does not make the point any less 'pointed'.

Dare I say this thread has a beneficial attribute. I just did! I have gained insight into many things as a result of it.

IMHO there is no question that 'we' enjoy less life, liberty and happiness than a short time ago. Perhaps these old eyes are more perceptive of less than ideal reality than my younger ones were. I like to believe not!

davebodner wrote:
Then there's the bogus Stalin quote. No way would he have said that. It's too complimentary of the US.


I'm still proud of us.

We may all rest assured that there is no way that Joe Stalin would've listed "spiritual life" as indicative of a healthy society anywhere on this planet.

I'm proud of us too. While I don't know that we'll ever to able to claim to be exceptional de facto I do know that we're one damned incredible nation and that mankind, as a whole, is likely very fortunate that the U.S.A. came into existence and remains committed to the path it has taken, every zig and zag of it, for two centuries and counting.

Happy Independence Day

AND – though I am not a religious man I love this nation so much that I in no way mind saying GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Keep up the good work people.

If you doubt America's exceptionalism, watch this video:

heathicus wrote:http://youtu.be/nuv0K8H8ILM

JPG40504 wrote:Let's start with the subject line. Please don't forward anything to everyone you know. That's spam. I can't imagine that even 10% of the people I know would be interested in any one thing I might have to say.

I think IDCook has critiqued the original post. The US experiment wasn't newly created out of whole cloth. It represented a continuation of ideas developed over centuries. Most European monarchs weren't absolute tyrants--they were accountable to constituents. Certainly not to the extent we think of today. But, then, neither was the US. The electorate in the newly formed US was only a minority of residents, mostly limited to land-owning white men of the right religion. The American Revolution managed to lop off the top of the pyramid of power, but the power structure within each state remained mostly unchanged. What was presented is a child's-eye view that doesn't stand up historically.

Then there's the bogus Stalin quote. No way would he have said that. It's too complimentary of the US.

Of course what set me off was the contention that the Left is responsible for all that's bad in America today. I'll admit I reacted a bit emotionally to that post--and others like it in other threads. The continuing attempt to vilify large portions of the US is tiresome.

The saddest part is the view that the US is less worthy than we used to be. Some things may be worse. But many are better. It's easy to view the past through rose-colored glasses. But, we've overcome serious challenges in our recent past. I get as frustrated with our political process as you do (though we disagree on the causes or the proper actions). But, notwithstanding any mistakes we've made in the past or the present, I'm still proud of us.

Thank You for that response.

This illustrates what IMHO makes 'us' exceptional(at least one point). The ability to discuss dissenting ideas(opinions if you will) without going berserk!

Not to say that is not possible other places as well.

But it is the sum of more 'points' that does make exceptional an appropriate adjective.

What concerns me as one who has survived long enough and with sufficient memory is that there has been a gradual deterioration of much of the good stuff. No I will not delve into identifying them since again it is a matter of opinion whether that 'stuff' is good or bad!

Many of those who lament the 'progress' here are diligent in 'protecting' what we have. Tis too late to get it back.

I for one do not agree with much of what has been said here, but do not think of myself as qualified to judge any one else.

As has been done in this thread, it is imperative that misconceptions/errors/whatever are identified and more light shed upon the subject.

I do not know if the Stalin 'quote' was real, but it is entirely plausible. Whether he actually said it or not(or any other despot said it) does not make the point any less 'pointed'.

Dare I say this thread has a beneficial attribute. I just did! I have gained insight into many things as a result of it.

IMHO there is no question that 'we' enjoy less life, liberty and happiness than a short time ago. Perhaps these old eyes are more perceptive of less than ideal reality than my younger ones were. I like to believe not![/quote]

The only way I could reply to this was by including the quote. Finally, something has drawn JPG from his taciturn, one sentence - or less replies into a lengthy monologue. Has that happened before? Not to my recollection.

A message to JPG: I have been very adept at pegging someone's IQ from what they do, write, say, etc. and am usually within + or - 5 in accuracy. I've identified dullards who had charisma and were promoted and people who really did things but didn't move up because of no charisma. I missed only one in 40 years - someone I worked with for 20 years whom I pegged at 140 but was almost off the chart at 189. Brilliant, non-degree tech who ran circles around RF engineers. So, how brilliant do I think you are? PM me if you want an answer. Your wife won't believe it - wives never do. They are married to the dumb asses.

If the video I posted didn't convince you, there's this: http://www.businessinsider.com/charts-t ... can-2014-7

I'm too old to be convinced of anything I don't already believe. Like the saying goes - Don't try to confuse me with facts!

Don't you guys just love the new song by Roger Dunn (formerly of Brooks and Dunn). The title is; "I wish I was smoking again". Through the lyrics he shows that in those old days when he was smoking he had everything to look forward to. Now that he has aged he can only look back at what he had done.

Isn't it great to look forward to stuff????

heathicus wrote:If the video I posted didn't convince you, there's this: http://www.businessinsider.com/charts-t ... can-2014-7

THANKS, Heath!

Oh, on the first 2, I've only got 2 Weber grills, and I used to work at Hawaii's first microbrewery. Ali'i Brewing Company.

steve

heathicus wrote:If you doubt America's exceptionalism, watch this video:

I watched and I was convinced that at one time America was exceptional.
The movie talked of us going to the moon. And we did, but have we improved on it? Can we go it faster, cheaper, carry more people or equipment? No in fact right now we can't go to the moon.

It talked of our steel mills how they were able to step up to the demands of war. Have we improved them? Can we make more steel, better steel, less expensive steel? Or is the fact we have shut down most of the steel mills?

I lived in Johnstown Pa and as a boy there was 10 miles of steel mills lining the sides of the Stony Creek River, they employed 50,000 men and worked 24/7. Today there is nothing, in fact most of the metal that was contained in those buildings has been ripped out and sold as scrap metal to China.

Go to Detroit and look at auto industry that was model for the world. Today is doesn't exist. I saw a TV tour of the Packard Plant that was the model of production. Today it is an empty crumbling shell. All the machinery has been sold as scrap to China.

Go to the south to South Carolina and look for at the textile industry. Most of the old textile factory buildings have been converted into something else or torn down. Travel around to the country side visit the old cotton towns, where bales of cotton were once loaded on to trains shipped to the textile factories. The tracks have weeds growing on them and the stations are empty. See the huge stacks crumbling as cotton mills lie dead.

At the beginning of the war in Afghanistan we realized the Humvee needed beefed up to better protect the American Soldier from explosives. A company in southern Ohio won the contract. However they were hindered not by bureaucratic red tape, not by OSHA, not by EPA but by the fact they could not find a place in the US to produce the steel they needed. They eventually went to China I believe.

Go into the farm lands and see stalk after stalk, field after field, acres after acres of tomatoes rotting because it is cheaper to let them rot and get paid for the lost than it is to pick them and sell them as food. While some go to bed hungry.

When Kennedy made his speech "Ask not what this country can do for you"
he made it to counteract what he saw was beginning to happen in this country. I believe he saw a time when people would be motivated by what is in it for them rather than it is the right thing to do. When in fact people would be asking what can this country do for me.

I believe this country was exceptional, very exceptional but I believe it has hit a zenith and is now on a slide.

Ed in Tampa wrote:I watched and I was convinced that at one time America was exceptional.

. . .

I believe this country was exceptional, very exceptional but I believe it has hit a zenith and is now on a slide.

Yep! Manufacturing(all kinds) was our strength. We have become a nation of bedroom communities and a service economy. Mostly consumption and little production.

What was unusual about that statement by Kennedy, was his political party affiliation.

JPG40504 wrote:Yep! Manufacturing(all kinds) was our strength. We have become a nation of bedroom communities and a service economy. Mostly consumption and little production.

What was unusual about that statement by Kennedy, was his political party affiliation.

What is said in a speech has little to do with belief or political affiliation, it is all about making an impact. Kennedy had some of the most talented speech writers of the time. That and his charisma made him very quotable.

Sad part of the whole thing was that while most everyone agreed with the point few heeded it or tried to live by it.

It is like the quote from Stalin. The words are true but instead of learning from it, it is easier to discount it by arguing whether he made it or not.