Shopsmith Forums

Ed in Tampa wrote:Don't understand how people can support pro football any longer.
These guys refused to honor the American flag. How can that be?

When watching the news regarding any public gathering in North Korea have you noticed how everyone (with a couple exceptions) are all in uniform and clapping in unison? Everyone agrees with their leaders. There are no dissenters. Only a very, very few individuals get to express their own opinions.

I don't think that is what we want here in the US. Those with contrary opinions should be allowed to express them openly if they so want. There are some pro athletes who do not take a knee. They don't all clap in unison.

I don't agree with those who show outright disrespect for the Country or its symbols (the Flag, etc) but I do believe that they have a right of self expression. I wore the Uniform for 20+ years. I like to think that one of the reasons for that was to ensure my (and your) freedom of expression.

I am not a pro football fan but not because they have opinions that differ from mine. I just do not enjoy pro football, basketball or hockey.

dusty wrote:

Ed in Tampa wrote:Don't understand how people can support pro football any longer.
These guys refused to honor the American flag. How can that be?

When watching the news regarding any public gathering in North Korea have you noticed how everyone (with a couple exceptions) are all in uniform and clapping in unison? Everyone agrees with their leaders. There are no dissenters. Only a very, very few individuals get to express their own opinions.

I don't think that is what we want here in the US. Those with contrary opinions should be allowed to express them openly if they so want. There are some pro athletes who do not take a knee. They don't all clap in unison.

I don't agree with those who show outright disrespect for the Country or its symbols (the Flag, etc) but I do believe that they have a right of self expression. I wore the Uniform for 20+ years. I like to think that one of the reasons for that was to ensure my (and your) freedom of expression.

I am not a pro football fan but not because they have opinions that differ from mine. I just do not enjoy pro football, basketball or hockey.

Expressing an opinion is one thing, but, IMHO there are things that are simply downright disrespectful and not appropriate for such antics. Yes somethings are like a 'Holy Grail'. National Anthems are one.

As for the super bowl(there I retained topic) I really do not even care if it happens. We got along just fine without one until over a half century ago.

As for those squirreley players, I fear we have created a culture that begs improvement.(elimination?)

BTW, the way to 'support' another's 'expression' does not necessarily include lockstep joining in. That be expressing the same thyself. I may support one's right to express an opinion, but do not intend to echo it regardless of whether I agree with that opinion or not nor do I think one has a carte blanc right to express it anywhere any time. One simply does not holler FIRE in a crowded theater.

Now back to our pseudo gladiator topic.

dusty wrote:

Ed in Tampa wrote:Don't understand how people can support pro football any longer.
These guys refused to honor the American flag. How can that be?

When watching the news regarding any public gathering in North Korea have you noticed how everyone (with a couple exceptions) are all in uniform and clapping in unison? Everyone agrees with their leaders. There are no dissenters. Only a very, very few individuals get to express their own opinions.

I don't think that is what we want here in the US. Those with contrary opinions should be allowed to express them openly if they so want. There are some pro athletes who do not take a knee. They don't all clap in unison.

I don't agree with those who show outright disrespect for the Country or its symbols (the Flag, etc) but I do believe that they have a right of self expression. I wore the Uniform for 20+ years. I like to think that one of the reasons for that was to ensure my (and your) freedom of expression.

I am not a pro football fan but not because they have opinions that differ from mine. I just do not enjoy pro football, basketball or hockey.

I agree we all have opinions and should be able to express them. However expressing an opinion during the national Anthem says to me you feel your opinion is more important than this country or the flag of this country. It is that kind of thinking that will bring this country down. Too many people already think they are more important than law and order.

I also do not believe players making millions should even try to convince us they are in locknstep with the afflicted. Total nonsense.

They are there hoping their antics will put them in the spotlight. My opinion any player that does show respect for this country or it's flag should be umemplyed the next day, no questions asked.

Ed in Tampa wrote:

dusty wrote:

Ed in Tampa wrote:Don't understand how people can support pro football any longer.
These guys refused to honor the American flag. How can that be?

When watching the news regarding any public gathering in North Korea have you noticed how everyone (with a couple exceptions) are all in uniform and clapping in unison? Everyone agrees with their leaders. There are no dissenters. Only a very, very few individuals get to express their own opinions.

I don't think that is what we want here in the US. Those with contrary opinions should be allowed to express them openly if they so want. There are some pro athletes who do not take a knee. They don't all clap in unison.

I don't agree with those who show outright disrespect for the Country or its symbols (the Flag, etc) but I do believe that they have a right of self expression. I wore the Uniform for 20+ years. I like to think that one of the reasons for that was to ensure my (and your) freedom of expression.

I am not a pro football fan but not because they have opinions that differ from mine. I just do not enjoy pro football, basketball or hockey.

I agree we all have opinions and should be able to express them. However expressing an opinion during the national Anthem says to me you feel your opinion is more important than this country or the flag of this country. It is that kind of thinking that will bring this country down. Too many people already think they are more important than law and order.

I also do not believe players making millions should even try to convince us they are in locknstep with the afflicted. Total nonsense.

They are there hoping their antics will put them in the spotlight. My opinion any player that does show respect for this country or it's flag should be umemplyed the next day, no questions asked.

Well Ed, I guess it is good that we both agree that our opinions need not be in harmony. We only seem to disagree on what should be done to those who happen not to agree with our opinions. It seems obvious to me, then, that you don't really believe in "freedom of expression" though you express yours very freely (at least here on the forum).

It does disgust me when I see the players kneel during the anthem. It also disgusts me when I see people leave their stadium seats during the anthem to go get refreshments. Should they also be on that "your fired list"?

Where is the line that one must not cross?

There is a big difference between going to the restroom than purposely protesting freedom . I do see as well as respect your point ,,on the other hand if some one believes robbing a bank or your garage should be the norm thats ok? ,taking away your rights to your own freedoms to own what you worked and paid for is a freedom ,the same freedom they protest given to us by those who wear and have worn the flag on their shoulder ,,my point is there are ways to protest their so called equality issue . protesting the flag is protesting freedom ,all freedoms, thats what the flag stands for ,doing it with class rather then hate would have made them patriotic and not haters. some of them must think having excessive amounts of money and drugs make them special, all they do is play ball , no different then grade school kids,,,,Just seems to most people the boundary lines were crossed . Football use to be about the plays and out smarting the other team , now its seem to be more about how big they are and how hard they can hit one another . JMO

I'm gonna push back on the idea that kneeling is disrespectful--no shock this coming from me, right?

Throughout history, kneeling has generally been considered a very respectful pose, subservient even. I'm glad the protesting players chose to kneel rather than talk, spit, sit, pick their nose, or do any of a number of activities that actually would be disrespectful. You may reject the reasons for their protest (I don't), but I reject the charge of disrespect.

davebodner wrote:I'm gonna push back on the idea that kneeling is disrespectful--no shock this coming from me, right?

Throughout history, kneeling has generally been considered a very respectful pose, subservient even. I'm glad the protesting players chose to kneel rather than talk, spit, sit, pick their nose, or do any of a number of activities that actually would be disrespectful. You may reject the reasons for their protest (I don't), but I reject the charge of disrespect.

I thought I should stay out of this discussion. However, although I don't agree with the apparent protest by kneeling, Dave you made a great point. It could have been different. Whether,their actions are deliberate or accidental, your explanation of their behavior is right on. Hopefully this is the intent. Maybe not, but in the interest of Christian charity, I accept your argument and applaud you for your insight.
Dick

davebodner wrote:I'm gonna push back on the idea that kneeling is disrespectful--no shock this coming from me, right?

Throughout history, kneeling has generally been considered a very respectful pose, subservient even. I'm glad the protesting players chose to kneel rather than talk, spit, sit, pick their nose, or do any of a number of activities that actually would be disrespectful. You may reject the reasons for their protest (I don't), but I reject the charge of disrespect.

While I agree with you that kneeling is a sign of respect in many situations, not so with the flag. There are rules covering the flag and how to show proper respect and yes I they are non-binding. You are supposed to stand and face the flag or if you can't see the flag face the direction the music is coming from and either salute if in uniform or put your hand over your heart if in civilian cloths and if in civilian clothes you are supposed to remove your hat.

On a military installation they play reveille when the flag is raised at the start of the duty day and they play retreat when the flag is lowered at the end of the duty day. The music is played over the base's outdoor public address system. If you are walking on base and hear the music you are supposed to stop face the music and render the proper respect. If you are driving on base and hear the music you are supposed to pull over, get out of your vehicle, face the music and render the proper respect.

jsburger wrote:

davebodner wrote:I'm gonna push back on the idea that kneeling is disrespectful--no shock this coming from me, right?

Throughout history, kneeling has generally been considered a very respectful pose, subservient even. I'm glad the protesting players chose to kneel rather than talk, spit, sit, pick their nose, or do any of a number of activities that actually would be disrespectful. You may reject the reasons for their protest (I don't), but I reject the charge of disrespect.

While I agree with you that kneeling is a sign of respect in many situations, not so with the flag. There are rules covering the flag and how to show proper respect and yes I they are non-binding. You are supposed to stand and face the flag or if you can't see the flag face the direction the music is coming from and either salute if in uniform or put your hand over your heart if in civilian cloths and if in civilian clothes you are supposed to remove your hat.

On a military installation they play reveille when the flag is raised at the start of the duty day and they play retreat when the flag is lowered at the end of the duty day. The music is played over the base's outdoor public address system. If you are walking on base and hear the music you are supposed to stop face the music and render the proper respect. If you are driving on base and hear the music you are supposed to pull over, get out of your vehicle, face the music and render the proper respect.

John, you are spot on correct in all that you have said here. However, you have used the words (supposed to).

I assume that todays active duty personnel are obligated to the same protocol and customs as were we. Unfortunately, this protocol is not uniformly complied with. Since these changes are occurring on military establishments, I am not at all surprised that they are occurring off post as well.

Go to a high school athletic event or to an American Legend baseball game. I think you will witness more of what we are talking about here.

The same rules no longer apply to the masses.

Hold a door open for someone and see just how surprised many people are. Jump up from a seat to go hold the door open for someone in a wheel chair. Same reaction . Those courtesies are no longer universally expected.

I guess I have gone a bit off topic here.

Naw, Dusty. You're right on, my friend.