Shopsmith Forums

JPG wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:33 pm That quill set screw is a half dog point.

Also either Nylok or nylon patch IIRC. Needed so it maintains position without being tightened against anything. They are readily available at competitive prices, though I like having an extra around too.

- David

Blue locktite is a decent work around(or nailpolish).

chapmanruss wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:08 pm I do not believe that Shopsmith (RLF Brands LLC) is going away anytime soon. They just introduced the new DC-6000 Dust Collector which doesn't seem like something a company would do, going to the expense of designing a new product if they were going away. That and their sanding products line which seems to do well. As for us some parts have already been discontinued and as they sell out we have to go to the used market. This is well known to those of us with the Shopsmith/Magna Jig Saw. We have had discussions about parts for it on different threads. One common one has been the Gasket for the Housing Cover. Fortunately, for me, I purchased a couple extras and other parts when I saw the Jig Saw parts were being discontinued. In this case though one can be easily made. The same has happened with the Mark 5/V original Table System (500) parts. I had a broken rear trunnion on one I restored a while back and had to get a used one because they were no longer available from the factory. Things at Shopsmith will continue change over time with new Models or Products. Others, like the Mark V 500, 505 and now 510 will be discontinued but that does not mean all hope for them is lost. I guess my thought today is if you have a discontinued model you may look at what could be needed for it in the future and base stock-pilling parts with that in mind. I do have quite an assortment of mostly used spare parts for Shopsmith Tools going back to the Shopsmith Model 10E. That is mostly because I restore them as a hobby and have collected many over the years. One part I have is a new Mark 5/V 500 original style fence which I really don't have a use for right now since my Mark V's are a 520 and one upgraded to a Mark 7, but I have it. Maybe I'll need it for a restoration someday. How many of us have a spare P/N 501634 Set Screw ref # 44 which holds the Quill on track and from extending all the way out of the headstock. It is not a common set screw like others used on Shopsmith tools. I know I do thanks to a suggestion by John about buying spare parts with orders. Set Screws are easily lost, with an oops, when removed so I didn't want my Mark's being out of service when doing Quill Maintenance. Spending a lot of time searching the floor for missing parts is hard on the knees. Eventually they tend to show up so back into the extra parts they go.

Let me start by saying that I hope Shopsmith is in business for a long, long time into the future. It is easy to second guess a company's (or individual's) actions/intentions, so here is my take on it. Just know though that my speculation is with the best of intent and I do wish Shopsmith to be a healthy company. With those caveats, here are my observations:

I am eager to know more about the DC-6000 because I want to know what is inside of it. From the pictures it clearly shares some DNA with the DC-3300 so it is at best a partial re-design, not a full re-design. Presumably the impeller changed in some fashion to support the higher airflow specs, but did the motor change as well? Beyond these two I don't see any real changes to it, yet. This is important because Shopsmith could have come out with a full re-design but that would have been more engineering time - translation $$$. I point this out because there really hasn't been much innovation at this company for some time now. My guess is that R&D isn't being funded and engineering is locked in product sustaining, NOT new product introduction (NPI). In the tech world this is death for a company. Of course, Shopsmith is an old school manufacturing company, so maybe it is a more long, drawn out death spiral for them, but still not good. So, what can they do differently?

One approach is a return to new products. The PowerPro was a great addition, even though I have serious heartburn on the pricing. However, it hasn't changed since it was introduced. What about different price tiers, e.g. a budget minded one that doesn't go above 5000 RPM or a newer version with touchscreen LCD, version to retrofit in a Power Station, etc., etc.? What about new accessories, add-ons? The drill press laser was a neat idea last year, but was a bit of a flop for some of us. That's okay, NPI's aren't always successful which is why you iterate and keep going. At one time, Incra seemed to be a partner with Shopsmith, but those days appear to be behind us. If so, perhaps Shopsmith should investigate making similar products for add-ons. A good example of a niche product to service one manufacturer is the Rip-Flip Fence system from Woodpeckers solely for the Powermatic or Sawstop. Shopsmith could do something similar to this or an Incra TS-LS Positioner replacement. They may not have the manufacturing capability for this because they are an old school manufacturer (castings instead of CNC), but they could partner with someone like Woodpeckers or sub-contract it out to someone else. What about adding DRO capability to any of their products? How about a bigger bandsaw. Yeah, it will be heavier, but probably no heavier than the Mark V mounted planer. Also, many of you have multiple machines and/or Power Stations where a bigger, upgraded bandsaw could reside permanently. Would love to have a wider jointer or planer, but my back can't stand the ones I have now. If we can have a Mark V mounted planer, why not a Mark V mounted drum sander w/conveyor? Small upgrades can sell as well. What about an improved lower saw guard, preferably one that can accommodate a 4" dust port, or a better sealed one that is only for the table set to 0°? How about a new table upgrade that is more uniformly flat with industry standard 3/4" miter slots? Or a new premium miter gauge? I could go on and on, but the point is that when I look across Shopsmith's product lineup I see only one version for most everything, i.e. there are no product tiers. When it comes to selling products there should always be a better, more expensive version - these are the ones where you make the most profit on. Lastly, what is the next evolutionary step for this tool? I mean the PowerPro was shoehorned in to fit in the original headstock casting. What if the entire system was re-invented with a DVR motor at its core, but reimagining the headstock design and everything else? Perhaps a rack and pinion for headstock and carriage, etc., etc.? Perhaps expanding its ability to work on metals would make this new Shopsmith model be more attractive to "makers" that previously wouldn't have considered a Shopsmith.

I don't know if anyone at Shopsmith reads this forum any more, but if they do I just want them to know that there are customers out there who want to support them. However, in my opinion they need to move out of simply product sustaining and just selling replacement parts. They need to evolve towards more modern manufacturing techniques or partner with someone who can deliver these new revenue generating products for them. Bottomline they need to find some way to fund R&D again...just my 1.5¢.

You have just described the differences that have made SS unique for decades. Product consistency is their strength with those of us old fogeys who do not march to the newer is better/ more choices is better / multiple versions . . . . . . .

I have tools from other manufacturers that are 'obsolete' in a few years after their creation(not because of lack of function, but from lack of support from the manufacturer). The accepted 'norm' these days is keep pushing newer/so called better/more choices which tends to keep the scrap dealers and trash collectors busy.

I for one march to a different tune. I for one am sadly out of step with the bulk of humanity. Old school? Youbetcha! Feet firmly planted in logic rather than party to the vicious cycle of replace everything just because it is 'old'. Maybe that is why I enjoy restoring old things.

JPG wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:40 am You have just described the differences that have made SS unique for decades. Product consistency is their strength with those of us old fogeys who do not march to the newer is better/ more choices is better / multiple versions . . . . . . .

I have tools from other manufacturers that are 'obsolete' in a few years after their creation(not because of lack of function, but from lack of support from the manufacturer). The accepted 'norm' these days is keep pushing newer/so called better/more choices which tends to keep the scrap dealers and trash collectors busy.

I for one march to a different tune. I for one am sadly out of step with the bulk of humanity. Old school? Youbetcha! Feet firmly planted in logic rather than party to the vicious cycle of replace everything just because it is 'old'. Maybe that is why I enjoy restoring old things.

So, basically you are saying that there are no new ideas and that everything Shopsmith has done in the past is perfect? In my post I kind of implied that the Mark V is well built/designed and has a large loyal following of owners. THESE are the ones who Shopsmith could sell these new upgrades, accessories, etc. From your post it seems like you think there is nothing new Shopsmith should design, but just keep selling all the originals and replacement parts. I am not saying all, or any, of my ideas are correct. Just proposing some options they could explore. I guess I am on the other side of the fence from the purists who believe Shopsmith was perfect when engineered 70 years ago and should not be changed.

"So, basically you are saying that there are no new ideas and that everything Shopsmith has done in the past is perfect?"

No I never said that any thing was perfect and could not be improved. Extrapolation often leads one to unjustified conclusions.

Note that just about all 'upgrades' are retro applicable.

Where I 'disagree' is that all should be replaced with a 'later' version just for the sake of being the newest and greatest.

Neither am I a "purist", but I do respect past intentions of a design.

FWIW I agree that SS could do better at developing new thingies. Recently they have been doing better. For a while NOTHING was being added to the spectrum.

It is my opinion that a consensus can not be had in an on-line discussion. The available discussion methods are inherently confrontational.

If we were all sitting around a round table, face to face, we could come to an agreement that some features should not be altered while still others could/should be improved upon. I also contend that we would all agree that there are features not yet touched upon that would be accepted by the mass majority. Likewise, some proposed features would be outright rejected as either unnecessary or down right inappropriate.

Remembering that this is a woodworking tool for amateur woodworkers. It is NOT a precision machine for professionals.

JPG wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:52 pm "So, basically you are saying that there are no new ideas and that everything Shopsmith has done in the past is perfect?"

No I never said that any thing was perfect and could not be improved. Extrapolation often leads one to unjustified conclusions.

Note that just about all 'upgrades' are retro applicable.

Where I 'disagree' is that all should be replaced with a 'later' version just for the sake of being the newest and greatest.

Neither am I a "purist", but I do respect past intentions of a design.

FWIW I agree that SS could do better at developing new thingies. Recently they have been doing better. For a while NOTHING was being added to the spectrum.

Thanks JPG. Re-reading my post from yesterday it did fall closer to hyperbole than I had intended. For that, I apologize. The engineer in me sees and appreciates many of the elegant facets of the Mark V design, but at the same time I am always looking for improvements that can be made. Maybe I am unique in wanting Shopsmith to offer upgrades and add-ons as well as newer models. From a business perspective, companies are either growing or they are contracting. The opinion that I was sharing is that I would like to see Shopsmith as a vibrant, growing company (and I gave some ideas for how they might grow). There is no public data to go on here, but I would guess (my opinion) that their business is slowly contracting. I hope I am wrong.

RFGuy wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:51 am

JPG wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:52 pm "So, basically you are saying that there are no new ideas and that everything Shopsmith has done in the past is perfect?"

No I never said that any thing was perfect and could not be improved. Extrapolation often leads one to unjustified conclusions.

Note that just about all 'upgrades' are retro applicable.

Where I 'disagree' is that all should be replaced with a 'later' version just for the sake of being the newest and greatest.

Neither am I a "purist", but I do respect past intentions of a design.

FWIW I agree that SS could do better at developing new thingies. Recently they have been doing better. For a while NOTHING was being added to the spectrum.

Thanks JPG. Re-reading my post from yesterday it did fall closer to hyperbole than I had intended. For that, I apologize. The engineer in me sees and appreciates many of the elegant facets of the Mark V design, but at the same time I am always looking for improvements that can be made. Maybe I am unique in wanting Shopsmith to offer upgrades and add-ons as well as newer models. From a business perspective, companies are either growing or they are contracting. The opinion that I was sharing is that I would like to see Shopsmith as a vibrant, growing company (and I gave some ideas for how they might grow). There is no public data to go on here, but I would guess (my opinion) that their business is slowly contracting. I hope I am wrong.

I'm not certain that the business is in contraction but the demand for replacement parts certainly is. This is a machine used by a contracting populace. I successful business operator will not pursue a dying market but rather eplace it with something new.

dusty wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:47 am It is my opinion that a consensus can not be had in an on-line discussion. The available discussion methods are inherently confrontational.

If we were all sitting around a round table, face to face, we could come to an agreement that some features should not be altered while still others could/should be improved upon. I also contend that we would all agree that there are features not yet touched upon that would be accepted by the mass majority. Likewise, some proposed features would be outright rejected as either unnecessary or down right inappropriate.

Remembering that this is a woodworking tool for amateur woodworkers. It is NOT a precision machine for professionals.

Thanks Dusty. Yeah, I didn't intend to be confrontational with my previous post...sorry about that. I think there is more Shopsmith could do to raise revenue, but I may be wrong. Hard to assess how much demand there might be for some new products. Personally I have no desire for the table tilt. It is a neat design, but I have never liked cutting on the tilted table myself, though I know a lot of Shopsmith owners love this feature. I'd love to have a re-designed lower saw guard for a 0° only table (w/improved dust collection), but maybe I am the only user in the world who would purchase it.

dusty wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:04 am I'm not certain that the business is in contraction but the demand for replacement parts certainly is. This is a machine used by a contracting populace. I successful business operator will not pursue a dying market but rather eplace it with something new.

Well, there is the million dollar question...why is Shopsmith serving a declining populace or dying market? I would argue that the overall woodworking market is not in decline. I have no real data other than observations on social media, YouTube content, etc. I believe the home DIY market is quite healthy and probably near a peak right now. When it comes to woodworking/fine woodworking, I have no data but I have to believe that the hobby is stable though I did share some data in this thread (viewtopic.php?p=266357#p266357) indicating it could be growing. So is it that Shopsmith is losing market share or is it that woodworking is declining? I don't know the answer for certain...