Shopsmith Forums

etc92guy wrote:I have a contractors saw without a blade guard because a $11.00 part is missing. I used it all summer while learning tongue and groove joints and building a new workbench and garage cabinet.

Working in information technology, I appreciate my fingers. And I still ahve them. Couldn't type with stubs. But there were days I did some stupid moves, like getting too close to the blade or or sawing freehand because I didn't have a taper jig.

I scared myself enough that I wouldn't go near it for a couple of days. And I would sweat when I had to use it again.

Most of us here use our equipment for hobby purposes. The result should be enjoyable, not painful or ending up maimed.

Am I scared of my saw? You bet. And I sometimes wonder if the fear is worth the effort. But then I remember that fear is what is keeping my digits on my hands. I am a sissy, on this issue, and proud of it.

It's also on my bucket list to get that part one of these days. I know it will lessen the fear, but it's never going to go away.

FEAR OF SOMETHING WHICH CAN MAIM YOU IS GOOD!

US CODERS WHO 'HUNT & PECK' ***CAN*** TYPE WITH STUBS(CAN NOT HAVE TOO).

jpg40504 wrote:FEAR OF SOMETHING WHICH CAN MAIM YOU IS GOOD!

US CODERS WHO 'HUNT & PECK' ***CAN*** TYPE WITH STUBS(CAN NOT HAVE TOO).

"Bones knit, chicks dig scars....." That was the common saying when I was sword fighting consistently.

To a point! Chicks DON'T dig MAIMINGS, and my employer (also in IT) would not appreciate me taking extended time away from the job, to have fingers healing. They had a hard enough time when I left for an afternoon to have a kidney stone removed!

Do I think our society is incapable of dealing with dangers? Maybe, but that is because we've (thankfully) become safer. Yeah, 50 and 60 inch expOsed saw mill style blades are not allowed to run anymore without proper safety measures in place, and that is a good thing, because as the industry got larger, casualties would have increased as well. What is an acceptable level? Well, although industry safety experts have a number of casualties that they consider "acceptable". I'll tel you, if that casualty statistic was only ONE, I would still believe it was too high a number, if that ONE was ME!

So, I may not be a MANLY MAN for not wanting to work around *anything* without the proper safety equipment, but at least I am still alive, and in tact.

I've met a lot of old, grizzled sawdust makers, and invariably, the ones missing missing body parts would relay the story of how this or that guard or safety whatever was removed/disabled so they could work faster. The story usually starts with "Well, I was being stupid...", or "I wasn't thinking when I..."

The goals I have at the end of every woodworking session are to come away having learned something new, to have improved upon my skill set, and most importantly, to walk out of the shop with the same body parts still attached that I walked in with!

This litigious society has diminished much of what used to be dangerous. In so doing, the simple awareness of potential danger is also diminished. Especially for those who don't have the benefit of experience or first hand knowledge.
Many of those who've posted in this thread have related the dangerous practices they've seen or experienced. They are aware. I don't, for a minute, believe that they either condone or even accept an inherently or potentially dangerous situation. Hindsight IS foresight.
It's what you don't know that'll bite you. Ignorance is truly bliss until you are bitten.
I fear for those who, for whatever reasons, do not possess the knowledge gained from experience that keeps many of those old grizzled woodworkers safe today.

pkni wrote: I fear for those who, for whatever reasons, do not possess the knowledge gained from experience that keeps many of those old grizzled woodworkers safe today.

How does one learn to NOT loose a finger? One learns by having someone knowledgeable show them. One also learns by reading safety manuals, and heeding instructions about the safety devices present on their tools. Not everything need be learned by direct experience, else how would we ever have gone in to space? You don't have to subject modern astronauts to all the risks that those pioneers were subjected to, just as new woodworkers need not work with open saw blades to "properly" learn woodworking.

I can still have respect for the tools I use, and STILL have the benefit of all the safety devices.

If all generations of humanity were as horribly incompetent/unruly/depraved, etc., as the previous generation(s) believed them to be then humanity would have disappeared in to a morass long, long ago. To paraphrase Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young, (who my parents really liked) "Teach our children well...and know they love you."

jnimz wrote:...To paraphrase Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young, (who my parents really liked) "Teach our children well...and know they love you."

What do you mean, "who my parents really liked"??? I "really" liked them too! David, Steven, Graham and Neil were great together!

a1gutterman wrote:What do you mean, "who my parents really liked"??? I "really" liked them too! David, Steven, Graham and Neil were great together!

Heh. Well, I am not saying I *don't* like them, but they grew up with them. By the time I was aware of music, they had long since moved on to other ventures. But their music is absolutely timeless.

jnimz wrote:How does one learn to NOT loose a finger? One learns by having someone knowledgeable show them.

Totally agree. My concern is for those who didn't/don't have access to that knowledge. I truly mourn the demise of manual arts classes.

One also learns by reading safety manuals, and heeding instructions about the safety devices present on their tools.

Absolutely!

Not everything need be learned by direct experience, else how would we ever have gone in to space? You don't have to subject modern astronauts to all the risks that those pioneers were subjected to, just as new woodworkers need not work with open saw blades to "properly" learn woodworking.

True, but it helps if one can see some operations and get that queasy feeling in the pit of the gut. It doesn't need to be seen in person...videos, even stills can get the point across. I remember a picture of a finger with all the attached tendon and muscle dangling from it. The unfortunate soul who belonged to the finger had jumped off the back of a truck and his ring finger caught between the slats of the stake bed. That photo hung on our ready room wall to remind everyone to remove their rings. To this day, jewelry (not to mention loose long hair and baggy clothing) is verboten in my work places.

I guess my point is that so many unsafe conditions have been eliminated that those coming after us may walk into some very dangerous situations, totally unaware. It's not complacency, it's ignorance. Not every situation is covered in "The Manual". And common sense is not innate.

I can still have respect for the tools I use, and STILL have the benefit of all the safety devices.

If all generations of humanity were as horribly incompetent/unruly/depraved, etc., as the previous generation(s) believed them to be then humanity would have disappeared in to a morass long, long ago. To paraphrase Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young, (who my parents really liked) "Teach our children well...and know they love you."

Yes, we can and hopefully do, teach our children well....about the things WE know. Only life's experiences and their curiosity can teach them the rest.

pkni wrote:This litigious society has diminished much of what used to be dangerous. In so doing, the simple awareness of potential danger is also diminished. Especially for those who don't have the benefit of experience or first hand knowledge.
Many of those who've posted in this thread have related the dangerous practices they've seen or experienced. They are aware. I don't, for a minute, believe that they either condone or even accept an inherently or potentially dangerous situation. Hindsight IS foresight.
It's what you don't know that'll bite you. Ignorance is truly bliss until you are bitten.
I fear for those who, for whatever reasons, do not possess the knowledge gained from experience that keeps many of those old grizzled woodworkers safe today.

Litigious ness has caused typical 'safety warnings' included with just about everything to become ineffective!

Do we really need two pages of warnings for a picture frame(chosen totally arbitrarily and sarcastically)?

How many times have you read power cord size warnings for a product which runs on batteries?

The effect of this overkill is to cause just about everyone to totally ignore this section of the instructions.

WHERE THERE IS TRULY A DANGER STATE IT IN NO UNCERTAIN WORDS(NO LEGALEZE).

DO ***NOT*** INCLUDE IRRELEVANT MATERIAL.

KISS!

If 'warnings' are of reasonable length the intended audience is more likely to read it.

The legal beagles are more interested in protecting their clients from possible litigation brought on by "one of their own"!:(

Thus 'safety warnings' have become more of a device to preclude the authors/manufacturers/sellers from the risk of being sued than to actually protect the consumer from physical harm.

Where's the logic in that scenario????????:rolleyes:

jpg40504 wrote:....
Thus 'safety warnings' have become more of a device to preclude the authors/manufacturers/sellers from the risk of being sued than to actually protect the consumer from physical harm.

Where's the logic in that scenario????????:rolleyes:

After fully agreeing with all of the above two posts re: lawsuits, etc. I have an answer to that question.

The logic in that scenario extends from the desire of the employed attorneys to keep their jobs.

Protect the consumer??? Not a requirement! Every once and a while, attorneys need a law suit in order to prove their value by making an atrocious settlement while claiming they saved their client loads of $.

jpg40504 wrote:Litigious ness has caused typical 'safety warnings' included with just about everything to become ineffective!

Do we really need two pages of warnings for a picture frame(chosen totally arbitrarily and sarcastically)?

How many times have you read power cord size warnings for a product which runs on batteries?

The effect of this overkill is to cause just about everyone to totally ignore this section of the instructions.

WHERE THERE IS TRULY A DANGER STATE IT IN NO UNCERTAIN WORDS(NO LEGALEZE).

DO ***NOT*** INCLUDE IRRELEVANT MATERIAL.

KISS!

If 'warnings' are of reasonable length the intended audience is more likely to read it.

The legal beagles are more interested in protecting their clients from possible litigation brought on by "one of their own"!:(

Thus 'safety warnings' have become more of a device to preclude the authors/manufacturers/sellers from the risk of being sued than to actually protect the consumer from physical harm.

Where's the logic in that scenario????????:rolleyes:

Actually, I think that is perfect. The manufacturers/whoever are protected from lawsuit due to all the warnings they provide, so it comes down to the consumer/user actually having to be responsible for his/her own actions!