Sawdust with 3300 Vacuum

[rdubbs]

I'm dying for someone to tell me all the features and uses of the overhead pin router. But even shopsmith doesn't have a demo.
Ed

Ed, check out the "New Overarm Pin Router" thread in General Woodworking. It doesn't have all of the answers, but perhaps a reply in there will yield another message from Nick. I would like to go to Dayton to take the routers class from Nick.

[charlese]

... if it was me I would sell what I had and get into the best system.... I sure wouldn't try to make the SS into something it never will be and it will never be a Festool, not even close.... I would spend a lot of time looking at festoolownersgroup.com to get to know the level of acceptance and customer satisfaction.... once I saw how it functioned I went in and bought everything else because I knew, for me, that was going to be something I would keep for the rest of my life and I'd enjoy working with that type of precision.... Look at what the owners have to say and you'll see that this is truly a revolution in woodworking for us in the US....I hope I have 20 years + and I'm glad I made the purchases.

I also sincerely hope you have at least 20 more years with your tools (equipment)! What ever floats your boat!

I reviewed the festool site and didn't find any tool there that will produce anything I cannot make on my 510. One of the questions the site left me with is]To me this was an indication of severe limitations of these tools.[/U] You either do things Festool's way or you don't do it. I'm sure they do the things they do do well, but what about the things they don't do? I watched the demonstrations (on line) where the girls glued up a couple of boards using floating tenons. Why did the Co. have this demo? Everyone knows that on two boards, properly jointed an glued, the glue joint has more breaking strength than the wood itself. Biscuits - dowels - or tenons are not necessary. There are cases where these things are used for alignment, but added strength? Not really! At joints where end grain meets - or mitered ends meet, yes. Will the festool tenons always do this job? I doubt it. Melamine or other sheet goods are another case. Sheet goods require some type of joining structure.

Your post (above) reminds me of the mechanical engineer friend of my son. He purchased a Swedish machine for a price of over $18,000. Needless to say, you both have sweet machines. The real question is - What can you produce from their use. I must ask; Is the purpose of woodworking to obtain the most exacting machines having extremely small tolerances in their construction, or is the purpose of woodworking to produce what you want to make, and have fun doing it.

Sorry, but I have found one of my pet peeves is the tool manufacturers that advertise set ups within thousands of inches, while all the time their machines are to cut/shape/boar/etc WOOD. - a material, by it's growth characteristics, and manufacture from a semi-round log will change size all by itself with air moisture changes.

One only needs to look closely at furniture in stores today? Most of the median priced wood furniture has been produced using industrial quality, very precise machines. Do their joints fit? Are the inset drawers made to exactly fit the carcase with even, small tolerances? Does this furniture compare to the fine extreme tolerances of the equipment used to produce it? Are the fittings of the muntins in multiple glass doors tight and precise? In many cases the answer to these questions is NO! Why? Because the quality of products produced relates more to the craftsmanship of the workman rather than the engineering of the machines used. Now take a look at furniture built more than a century ago - prior to these machines. There is quite a quality difference. How did those guys do it without micro-precision machinery? The answer is a no-brainer! Quality workmanship!

Now to the SS and their DC 3300; If proper maintenance of the 3300 is carried out - it will remove 80% of the sawdust created by a saw. Not all! If you want to see the difference a 3300 makes, just saw a few runs with the hose removed from the lower dust guard.

When the 3300 is hooked up -- it works as advertised! Of course this includes proper cleaning of the hood (for maximum air flow) and adjustment of the lower saw guard. It needs to be wide and close to the table crossbar. Also the plastic tie bar guard needs to be in place. The lower saw guard is adjusted by loosening two cover lock knobs and sliding the guard cover. That's why SS used knurled knobs for the lock knobs.

[putttn]

Wow Chuck, I can see I hit a sore spot. I guess I have to agree with a lot of things you say because you have a lot more experience in woodworking than I. However I have to laugh at your defensive position when that's all I've heard on this forum about quality quality quality. Now, when another product shows up that is superior in quality you poo hoo the quality issue. Can't have it both ways Chuck. I guess I could say I can do everything the 510 can with a hand saw, drill and some sandpaper. I'm not so impressed with the tolerances as with the fact that everything works and works so effortlessly. Everyone has different reasons to woodwork and different levels of enjoyment. For me, I am going to enjoy the ease of use and the fact that everything works as they claim. It also works in a different way than we are familar with here in the US. When I saw I don't get hardly any sawdust. When I sand I don't get any dust. My vacuum starts when my machine starts. Everything fits perfectly and I don't have to get my pliars out to bend a part back into shape so it will kind of work (lower saw guard). That's what floats my boat, maybe not what all the "woodworkers" would agree with but it's what I enjoy.
No disrespect to your abilities but there are an awful lot of very qualified "woodworkers" on festoolownersgroup.com who have made the switch and are beyond happy. Many of these owners are contractors and their examples of beautiful work is pretty impressive. As to the DC3300 it is a good vacuum but the combination of the vacuum with poor workmanship/design of the sawdust capture system of the SS results in a poor system. I don't get any sawdust/dust in the operations with the Festool. Why should I be happy with 80% when there's a better alternative? What about the 20% that's all over the machine and floor and I have to clean up. If Festool can figure out and produce such a good vacuum system why can't SS?
I own both systems and my observation is the Festool system is a much better system for me and I enjoy working with tools that are made by craftsmen. Yes, I agree with you that I will produce what I want to make and I will have fun doing it and I will also have fun doing it with some really nice tools. And that includes the SS as well. I would suggest you take some time and make a hands on comparison, as I have, and maybe you will experience what I experienced and maybe not. I'll still use some things on my SS but for most sawing/sanding operations I'll use my Festool and not have to clean up afterwards. By the way, John at woodshopdemos.com is the one who did the Domino review, not the company.

[reible]

I wasn't going to reply to any of this but what the heck....

The Festool has some nice features. It could replace a lot of tools in my shop and maybe if I had a lot of money I would invest in some parts of the system. I can see how a contactor would like this system and would think that most of the market is contactors and high end consumers.

They have done a very good job on marketing and the demos are well done, however not anywhere as complete as they could be. It also leads me to think of what they are not saying.......showing.

First this is a hand held saw and with that comes some limits, things like depth of cut come to mind. How do you do dado's or use a molding head, how easy is to double cut stock.... can you do pattern cutting. Most of what you see the saw do you can already do with any hand held saw and a few attachments or home made jigs.

That rubber edge is not going to last forever and either are other parts so what normal wear and tear parts will be needed in say 10 years and how will it be to get parts for the model you have when they have gone on to the forth generations saw... How much will parts cost??? Lots of unanswered questions.

Now as far as dust collection.... I have the demo CD and if you watch the saw demo right near the end when they do a 2x4 you can watch all the saw dust go flying....... on no... it is on tape and I have a copy and I see saw dust. OK granted it might do well but nothing is perfect.

This maybe the wiz bang tool today but in another 10 years people will be saying "you don't have that dumb old WZ100034H anymore do you?" No no you need the new AXE 3000 with hyperspeed warp drive and worm hole technology!!!! Yes the new laser aided water blade with turbo cooled ice crystal blade is the way to go!!!!

This is not a replacement for a table saw, or a drill press or a lathe or a large sander or a horizontal drill press........ it is after all a bunch of hand held tools.

This review has nothing to do with shopsmith but everything it has to do with tools in general. The festool will fit in a nitch market but it will not fit in most peoples budgets... those masses will continue to buy what is cheapest in the big box store... a few of those will find they like woodworking and a few more of them will become the few like us....

Now can we please get back to shopsmith related things???

Ed

[Ed in Tampa]

First this is a hand held saw and with that comes some limits, things like depth of cut come to mind. How do you do dado's or use a molding head, how easy is to double cut stock.... can you do pattern cutting. Most of what you see the saw do you can already do with any hand held saw and a few attachments or home made jigs.

That rubber edge is not going to last forever and either are other parts so what normal wear and tear parts will be needed in say 10 years and how will it be to get parts for the model you have when they have gone on to the forth generations saw... How much will parts cost??? Lots of unanswered questions.

Ed

Ed
I don't want to get into a Festool debate here, but if you noticed I asked about the Festool being a complement to the ShopSmith.

The biggest thing is safety, if you haven't noticed it is becoming the focal point in wood working discussions. Two issues primarily dust and mutilation by cutting something.

Sawstop came out with a saw that is very expensive but protects against mutilation injuries. I didn't think much about the machine with the high price and cost of repair after it prevents an accident. However I'm seeing it show everywhere some one other than the owner of the machine can use the machine. I assume that is do to insurance issues. Places like schools, common workshops, demo facilities, and even the most of the wood working machines.

The other issue dust is being talked about and people are turning to dust collectors, high priced and exotic vaccums and other ways.

Frankly I think we are going to see a big push by OSHA in the very near future in attempt to prevent mutilation injuries and problems caused by dust.

Interestingly the Festool addresses both issues.

You mentioned Dado's I don't think you can sell a tablesaw in Europe that a Dado can be mounted on. I think they are using routers instead. Also I know Europe had stricter air pollution laws than we do. Again Festool addresses that.

I think you going to see sweeping changes in woodworking in the near future and I think we (woodworkers) would be wise to stay abreast of the the technology. I think in many cases the changes may be forced on us with Government manidated dust and safety issues.


I suspect there will if there aren't already suits filed against non Saw Stop technology saw manufactures. I would guess the thrust of the suit would be their neglect to install the latest safety feature on their machine even when the technology exisited. This neglect contributed to an injury that could have been otherwise prevented.

I also can see a similiar suit over dust issues.

So yes a cheap machine can produce the same thing most high dollar machines do. However the real question I think can they do it as safe and as user friendly.

Again I don't want to throw away my Shopsmith but I would love to be able to make finish cuts in 4x8 without having to heave the sheet around. I would also like to be able to sand, cut boards and etc. without having all the dust these jobs presently make.

I think Festool or something similar may be the perfect complement to our ShopSmiths. For one thing I watched one cut a perfect bevel the width of a 4x8 sheet and the guy cutting didn't have to lift any thing or try to balance the sheet on the tilted table.

No it won't do dado's but my shopsmith will. But it can easily cut the fill in board for a cabinet job that would be a real problems to cut on the ShopSmith
They seem to complement each other.
EdB

[reible]

Hi EDB,

My post was in general and not addressing any one other post....

This one is just for you... the rest of you skip this.

I agree with most of what you say, some I hope never happens while I'm still a woodworker...

Yes a system like the festool would be nice.... I like to have the store cut my plywood if I can because it is easier for me to get home like that and since I have a bad back it is also easier on that. If I can't do that then I bring it home and set it up to cut with my circular saw and a one of several clamp on straight edges I own. While my circular saw has a dust port that can connect to a vacuum system I normal just use the bag as the hose seem to get in the way.... same thing I found with the dust collector on most of the other tools I own. The cord is enough for me to deal with. The plywood I could almost handle but mdf and other like products I could not. Even 4x4 chunks could be an issue and would most likely be done with the hand held saw. So yes the Festool or any number of other systems can complement what ever saw you have. I will further state that it has been years since I brought home a whole sheet of plywood, and even longer ago for a whole sheet of mdf.

The biggest safety factor you have is you. When it gets down to having a tool that can not harm you some how there are none. Drop the Festool saw on your foot and see if it hurts...... sure it does, and if you got it just right maybe it could even brake a bone in your foot. So don't drop it right? OK a little silly but, yes I do understand what you are saying about safety and yes europe has a lot different standards then we do. This is not just for tools but for electronics and more.

If the saw stop thing becomes a law then it does... But, would I go out tomorrow and sell my shopsmith and get a new saw equipped with it just because I know it is safer... I guess not as I have know about it for a while and have never even thought about getting another saw. So if the government makes me then I have to decide if I can afford it or if woodworking will only be memory. Will I go out and buy a festool because it is safer???

Dust issues are very complex and methods of dealing with it will be an issue and I can not say how well the festool system works verses other system that you can get.... it maybe better then the shopsmith system but is it better then xyz system???? I personally don't have the shopsmith system so I can't even address how well it works. Less dust = better. Maybe OSHA will eliminate some woods from use too... something to look forward too.

Living in a free market system like we do if festool catches on and starts selling lots of systems in will come the clones and maybe even a few big names with systems that are simular and maybe even better.... for sure there will be cheaper ones....

How does that go... they will have to pry the shopsmith out of my cold dead hands... or something like that.

Ed

[putttn]

Don't want this to get into a Festool vs SS debate and my original post was about the sawdust issue I am having while sawing with my SS. I guess the answer to my question is, it doesn't do a great job of collecting sawdust. And, since I have the Festool to compare to it, I am doing just that-comparing the two. I love my 3300 but don't like the dust collection around the blade so I won't use it as much as my Festool. I'll still use it but not as often. I do have confidence in both systems and think I might have pretty close to the best for me. They are both in a niche market but I believe the Festool offers more upside to more woodworkers. It's a change and we all know how people react to change. I do have confidence in Festool since they've been in production since 1929 and I have yet to see a post on festoolownersgroup.com about anything wearing out. The fact that many contractors use it and use it a lot gives me confidence that they're made to last. One note about the popularity of this new system, in my area school districts are lined up to purchase this system and it's hard to get a demo at the local Woodcraft store because often the system is out on demo to a school district. As to the cost; for saw, multifunction table, clamps, jig saw, router, orbital sander and vacuum my total outlay is $1,959.00. If I had purchased a new SS my outlay with vacuum would have been $4,280! That's more than double what I'm in my whole Festool system or better put I have another $2,200 to purchase things like the Festool Domino, Planer and Drill and still have $800 left over and I've purchased all the tools in the system. On top of that I have all the tools in perfectly fitting "Systainers" that simply clip together and can reside on top of my vacuum for roll around or just stacked neatly in a small area, (less than 4 square feet). I rest my case!

[dusty]

You rest your case?????

I'm not sure what your case is. You are in the process of making choices. We all make choices and then we live with or pay for the results.

A lot of people have shops that are non Shopsmith and a lot of Shopsmith shops exist. Why. Different strokes for different folks. I happen to be one who chose Shopsmith and have hardly ever doubted that decision.

If you read the SS Forum closely, you'll find that there are numerous mixed shops and very few have serious negative things to say about Shopsmith (or their other equipment) and why should they. They made the choice based on their needs.

I purchase other tools when I need them and when I do, I have to make more choices. I'm going to Woodcraft today to evaluate some of their Festool offerings versus Delta.

Go back to festoolownersgroup and read the comments of the forum. All 1166 of them have opinions, all of which are based on what they perceive to be their needs. That is as one would expect.

May you enjoy every minute you spend in your mixed shop. Whatever you do, work safely and make much sawdust.
___________________
Making Sawdust Safely 'while collecting most of it in my 3300'

[Ed in Tampa]

You rest your case?????

I'm not sure what your case is. You are in the process of making choices. We all make choices and then we live with or pay for the results.

A lot of people have shops that are non Shopsmith and a lot of Shopsmith shops exist. Why. Different strokes for different folks. I happen to be one who chose Shopsmith and have hardly ever doubted that decision.

If you read the SS Forum closely, you'll find that there are numerous mixed shops and very few have serious negative things to say about Shopsmith (or their other equipment) and why should they. They made the choice based on their needs.

I purchase other tools when I need them and when I do, I have to make more choices. I'm going to Woodcraft today to evaluate some of their Festool offerings versus Delta.

Go back to festoolownersgroup and read the comments of the forum. All 1166 of them have opinions, all of which are based on what they perceive to be their needs. That is as one would expect.

May you enjoy every minute you spend in your mixed shop. Whatever you do, work safely and make much sawdust.
___________________
Making Sawdust Safely 'while collecting most of it in my 3300'

This weekend the Woodworking show is in town and I visited it yesterday. One of the saw blade demostrators has his thumb bandaged and admitted that last week the blade bit him.

Now I don't know if you ever watch any of these guys but they have their demo down pat, their moves are almost mechanical they have done it so often. Yet this guy let down his guard for just an instant and he now has his whole thumb bandaged.

Accidents can and do happen, my concern is I don't want the government to manidate any restrictions on woodworking. But to prevent this I believe accidents have to be seen as declining not going the other way.

Some manufactures have made definite strides increasing safety and I think it behooves all of us to investigate and incorporate some of these increased safety measures into our woodworking. Not just for our own safety but for the image of hobby/craft.

This is why I was interested in the Festool tools, not to replace my Shopsmith but to enhance the safety of what I do in my shop. If Festool makes certain cuts safer (reducing the chance of injury and dust) than cutting on the Shopsmith then perhaps it is something we all need to think about. There is still a zillion other things the Shopsmith does, and I don't think Festool or any other system has a lock on types of cutting. I'm sure there are cuts to be made on the Shopsmith that are safer there than on the Festool.

What I don't want to happen is for woodworkers to become so complacient they don't look for better ways and allow technology to so pass them that the government thinks we need their protection. If woodworking increases and injuryies increase you know the insurance industry will drag the government in to mandating what can and can not be used.

I don't want to lose all the functions of the Shopsmith do to it not meeting some future safety mandate of the government, just because I refused to consider making balky/bevel cuts with something else.

[putttn]

Well Dusty I think my "case" is this: I purchased the SS thinking that with the vacuum I'd have a pretty clean environment in the small space I have for the shop. Not the case. I can hardly wait to do some sanding and see what the results ot that are! Made the comment that Festool has a system that works and that SS is 95% there, why not finish the job. It could be done. Wondered if I was doing something wrong.
Got a little challenge on the Festool thing and now my case has expanded to I paid less than half what a new SS would cost and I think I got a great system. Sure glad I'm not into this SS for $4,280.
You are right about choices but you forgot one important thing, justification. We all make choices then we justify those choices to assure ourselves that we made the right choice. All I'm saying is I believe SS can do better and I'd be thrilled if it worked to the extent that Festool made theirs work.
The SS forum is a great resource for information and I'm hoping that SS would come out with something that would solve the sawdust issue, especially when they have such a nice vacuum.
Sure don't mean to offend anyone here or challenge their choices/justifications but I think we'd all agree there is room for improvement from SS on this issue.