Shopsmith Forums

dusty wrote:Are we talking about serving two or more circuits with the same breaker OR

are we talking about using two wires for the same feed (like two #14 is better than one #12).

Both seem like a NO NO to me.

Using two conductors in parallel to 'increase' the capacity of a branch circuit IS a bad idea!

Having more than one path is not uncommon. A branch circuit may go direct from the breaker to a device or junction box and be spliced into two separate (sub) branches. The splicing may also be done within the breaker panel. Consider what is done on a lighting branch circuit: A feed(from the breaker or another device box) connects to the switch and the neutral is spliced to a pair of conductors going to the 'light'(the second conductor connects between the light and the switch). Both the hot and the neutral may also be spliced to another pair which feeds device box(es) downstream.

Keep in mind the breaker is sized to protect the conductors by limiting the maximum current. If a circuit is split, each separate path is more than adequately protected as long as the breaker IS properly sized for the conductors used(bigger wire is ok, smaller wire is NOT!).

Using parallel conductors is an acceptable method(IMHO) of decreasing the voltage drop on a LONG run as long as the breaker is the correct size for the wires used. Any run doing this should be side by side. It is probably cheaper to just use the larger size wire(and less prone to later mis-understanding).

I have rambled here at the possible expense of clarity. If confused tell me, I will try again by narrowing things down a bit.

Keep one hand in yer pocket when the other is IN the box!? Stand on dry floor(preferably insulated)!:eek:

dusty wrote:Is it not a code violation to gang wires from a breaker?

Dusty
I believe you allowed to do it as long as the combined circuits don't exceed code capacity. Example when I first bought my house I had all kinds of empty space in my box. At two different times I wired ceiling fans using two different breakers. However over time I used up all my existing empty spaces in my breaker box so rather than rewiring the four fans on one circuit (total draw less than 10 amps and usually less as two fans are rarely used) I just put both circuits to the same breaker thus freeing up a breaker in the box.

There is no difference between with I did and wiring them in series except the amp draw on any one wire will be half of what it would be if it was wired in series. The breaker will see the same power draw.

Ed in Tampa wrote:Dusty
I believe you allowed to do it as long as the combined circuits don't exceed code capacity. Example when I first bought my house I had all kinds of empty space in my box. At two different times I wired ceiling fans using two different breakers. However over time I used up all my existing empty spaces in my breaker box so rather than rewiring the four fans on one circuit (total draw less than 10 amps and usually less as two fans are rarely used) I just put both circuits to the same breaker thus freeing up a breaker in the box.

There is no difference between with I did and wiring them in series except the amp draw on any one wire will be half of what it would be if it was wired in series. The breaker will see the same power draw.

The only problem (as I see it[IMHO]) is that the terminals of the breaker are not designed for more than one conductor. It is better to attach a single conductor to the breaker and splice the two(or more) branch circuit conductors a short distance(inside the breaker panel) from the breaker in an area where the splice does not interfere with anything else.

I would use the term 'daisy chaining' rather than in 'series'. Perhaps sequential would be 'better'. What you are describing is a branch circuit which is 'tapped into' at each device box. The incoming conductors and the out going conductors and wires to the 'device' are spliced together in the device box. Sometimes the device itself is used as the splicing method. This is the reason for double screws or dual insert holes for the conductors. It IS possible to split the circuit into more than one branches.

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judaspre1982 wrote:For those who run out of space in their electric panels and are looking to add a circuit, there is what are called tandem breakers .http://electrical.about.com/od/panelsdistribution/a/tandembreakers.htm http://www.thefind.com/hardware/info-tandem-breaker These can save a lot of hassle---Dave

Ah tandem breakers. We had an electrician install a set. Then noticed problems with breakers throwing. It has been removed and our problems erased. Be careful not to overload them. fjimp:p

dusty wrote:Is it not a code violation to gang wires from a breaker?

In the state of Washington, it is absolutely forbidden!!!

Ed in Tampa wrote:Dusty
I believe you allowed to do it as long as the combined circuits don't exceed code capacity. Example when I first bought my house I had all kinds of empty space in my box. At two different times I wired ceiling fans using two different breakers. However over time I used up all my existing empty spaces in my breaker box so rather than rewiring the four fans on one circuit (total draw less than 10 amps and usually less as two fans are rarely used) I just put both circuits to the same breaker thus freeing up a breaker in the box.

There is no difference between with I did and wiring them in series except the amp draw on any one wire will be half of what it would be if it was wired in series. The breaker will see the same power draw.

Ed,
Truly, if they were wired in series, you could knot have one work without the other one(s) working. That, too is an incorrect way to wire them, but might be legal where you live. Normally, you wood install the fans in parallel, if they are to all be on one circuit (one breaker). To do this, you wood run a 2 wire (plus ground) cable from the breaker panel to the first fan, and then run a 2 wire (plus ground) cable to the second fan from the first, and continue to all of the fans that way. In series, you wood run a single wire from the breaker to the first fan, and then another single wire from the first fan to the second fan, continueing to all the fans in that circuit, and finally, a final single wire from the last fan back to the neutral bar in the breaker panel. Somewhere, in either of those circuits, wood also be a switch. The words "single wire" and "2 wire (with ground) cable" can mean that you can use the same cable to do both]edit: Red's solution of splitting a circuit after it leaves the breaker, is plausible. My meter box is wired that way, i.e., the cables from the power company enter my meter box, and after the electricity is measured by the meter, a branch goes to the panel in my house and a branch goes to the panel in my well house. These two branch circuits originate each at their own lug in the meter box. To do it inside a breaker panel wood probably require the use of wire nuts.[/I]

fjimp wrote:Ah tandem breakers. We had an electrician install a set. Then noticed problems with breakers throwing. It has been removed and our problems erased. Be careful not to overload them. fjimp:p

The problem with tandem breakers is that they DO put more than ONE in the space allocated for ONE. This can lead to heat buildup between the tandem breakers AND the adjacent breakers. The end result is improper(breaker tripping with LESS than rated load passing through them) operation. Also breaker panels ARE rated in regard to the number of poles(breakers) in them. i.e. a 200A 115/230v panel typically is rated for 40 poles. A 115v circuit uses a single pole. A 230v circuit uses 2 poles.

Breakers respond to both magnetic field and heat created by current passing through the breaker depending on their design.

P.S. I do NOT believe Ed meant in series as Tim described. As I have already stated, perhaps 'sequentially' would better describe what he was referring to(as per Tim's second(parallel) description). I still maintain that a single device box to device box run is NOT necessary. The branch MAY be split into more than one 'run'. Just do NOT insert more than a single conductor into/onto the breaker terminal. Splice it downstream instead.

JPG
You are right I did use the wrong word. You never wire a house in series. If you did you would have to have something plugged into every receptacle and turned on for anything in the circuit to work. Or in my example every fan turned on for any of them to run. The correct word was sequential. My BAD!


Most breakers will take two conductors. If you look at them the wire usually goes on one side of the tightening screw or the other. There is room on the opposite side for another wire.

I believe the National Code which most local codes are based on permits two (only two conductors) in a breaker. But you are right if the code doesn't permit it you could run a single in the breaker and make a Y right after, making two home runs.

The dual circuit breakers are also very reliable now. Also most new panel boxes do list how many dual breakers you can use. Many new homes are using them as houses get bigger and more plug receptacles are being required by code. For instance I believe the code requires a plug receptacle every four feet on each wall in a bed room. If you have a 14x14 bedroom code would require 12 plugs of which only few would ever be used. With a max of 8 receptacles on a home run. So each bedroom would require two home runs and two breaker positions. Thus many are using dual breakers for just such a situation. You would still have two home runs, your number of receptacles per run would be within code but you would only use one breaker position with a dual breaker. That equals a huge savings in cost on the breaker box which are totally ridiculously priced. Also since a dual breaker is about half the cost of two breakers you save there also.

Ed in Tampa wrote:...Most breakers will take two conductors. If you look at them the wire usually goes on one side of the tightening screw or the other. There is room on the opposite side for another wire... ... For instance I believe the code requires on plug every four feet on each wall in a bed room. If you have a 14x14 bedroom code would require 12 plugs of which only few would ever be used. With a max of 8 receptacles on a home run. So each bedroom would require two home runs and two breaker positions. Thus many are using dual breakers for just such a situation. You would still have two home runs, your number of receptacles per run would be within code but you would only use one breaker position with a dual breaker...

Wow, Ed!
I do knot know the electrical codes for the Nation or the state of Florida, but I have had experience for complying to the state of Washington's:
1) In Washington, even though the standard breaker has room for two wires, it is knot allowed to wire them that way.
2) In Washington, the spacing of receptacles in a bedroom (and the rest of the house too) requires that no point on a wall is more then 6' from a receptacle, so about every 12'.
3) In Washington, all bedrooms must be on Arc Fault Circuit Interuptor breakers. I have never seen a peanut/tandum/double/slim AFCI breaker.

Things must be really different in Florida!