Shopsmith Forums

Francis, I am guilty as charged! Interesting that as many of you have moved from the beginning to the present in your woodworking, you have moved away from the following the 'Plan" to a more free style approach. I think that is a common path for any thing we do. I taught math for many years and at times I would have students " just follow the pattern" on some task that caused problems for them. I was not uncommon for a kid to suddenly "get" what ever the issue was and then have no idea what or why they struggled. I am a true novice, and I still have to follow the pattern most of the time, but I have several projects that I have made 5 or 6 copies of. I find I can do these more free hand. for me at this point, I fight three things. 1. I can't always identify my errors as set up or technique or some other issue. 2. As I get better at set up, I realize that repeatability is not just a matter of technique. 3. I get unhinged by errors and often don't spend enough time considering a fix, often compounding the problem. Last issue for me is fixating on the tools to do something. Gotta get that Ax with the dial gauge!

I just know y'all want my opinion on this subject, so here it is: I never look for plans, or buy plans, but, once I have an idea of what I want, I create my own drawings. I use these drawings to make sure that I will make something that fits where I want it or so that a certain something (whatever it might be) will fit into what I am making. I also use my drawings to determine my materials list. I do not spend a lot of time worrying about my accuracy. I use methods that allow for repeatability when necessary and when something does not fit "good enough" (thank you Paul M.), I make adjustments as I go. I can spot my "adjustments" better then anyone else, and I know it, so I do not worry about that either.

In the obsession for accuracy, who loses?

Incra, Festool and other 'accuracy obsessed' companies keep pushing the boundaries which mean less 'finessing' needed.

Skill can make up for lack of modern tooling and modern tooling can make up for lack of skill.

Lots of info and opinion here and that is a good thing. However a good thing sometimes becomes obsessive. That said, I am one of those guys that really gets obsessive about TUNING of the tools. When I align the tables of the SS or any of the other tools that require an occasional tune up I do try to get that ultimate level of accuracy. \
The reason for that is I believe that fine tuning of the tool results in setups that are more accurate and easier to accomplish thus resulting in truer and better fitting joints.
Don't overdo a good thing
Case in point; several years ago I built a bunch of cabinets for the garage using MDF and dado construction. I fine tuned the dado set for a very good fitting dado and got all of the panels cut and set for assembly the next day.
The problem is that I live in Florida and the day I cut the panels was fair and dry and the next day the humidity went up quite a bit. You got it , nothing fit together. The humidity caused the thickness of the panels to change and the dados were too tight requiring several minutes of sanding of each panel with 100 grit paper to get things to go together.
The cabinets turned out OK but with a lot more work.
My conclusion is that the time spent tuning the equipment is time well spent and the accuracy spent on the woodworking should be of a level that does the job to YOUR satisfaction.
Bill V

dusty wrote:OKAY, bring me up to date here.

If we were discussing the Mark V Main Table Alignment Procedure would you be for or against using a dial gauge and attempting to align the table to within .001"-.002".

If we were attempting to set table tilt to 0° +- 0.1°, using a Wixey, would we be obsessing with a need for accuracy.

Dusty
I'm not against trying to get as accurate as possible. However I use a dial gauge to set my main table not because I believe I need it to be within .001-.002. But I using the dial gauge easier than using a more subjective way like moving the table until a rod pinned in my mitre gauge just touches the saw blade.

I don't own a wixey as such but I do have a Sears electronic torpedeo level. However most often I use an try angle to set the tilt on my saw.

Here is what I believe. You can set the main table on a SS to .000" accuracy and the first time you use the main table to move the shopsmith or even if you don't push on the table but just move your shopsmith variations in the floor and such will change that reading a couple of thousands.

You can set your tilt with a wixey or whatever to .000" accuracy and a slight jarring of the table will change it a couple of thousands.

Now unless you hand picked, hand tuned your blades I imagine there is more .005" difference in runout between them. Add to this the differences in runout between your various arbors and again you find yourself off your original .000" setup.

I'm not picking on SS because this happens on any table saw.

Now throw the wood on the table and make the cut. Unless your fence was .000" tolerance to cut dimension you added another error factor. Also any and all variations in the wood either where the wood meets the blade or where the wood presses against the fence or miter gauge you have more variation.

Then figure in your own ability to hold the wood perfectly against the fence or miter guage and you have more variations. Also consider how well you align the wood up with the blade and your cut mark. Consider the cut mark itself it's width will throw you out of .000" accuracy if everything else was perfect.

What I'm saying is a perfect machine aligned to .000" accuracy, cut with a perfect blade with no runout, will still have a degree of inaccuracy just because of the nature of wood working.

The true craftsman seeing perhaps only the tiniest sliver of light in the joint knows exactly how to finesse it quickly to remove that slight flaw. That is a skill many of us try to compensate for by obessing over how well our machine is built/adjusted.

I submit to you that if it were possible to have a perfect machine with a perfect blade cutting perfect wood there is still a lot of room for craftsmanship.

A craftsman still needs the finesse that many of us have not developed as fully as others.

The difference between what I would call a nicely done piece and a piece done by the craftsman is how well each finessed each joint, each board, each step of finish and etc.

And I submit the craftsman can do such work using a hand saw, $50 bench top or $4000 high end .000" accurate saw.

I have watched craftsman hand rip a board that I don't think I could duplicate the accuracy on my SS. But more importantly I saw him fit (finesse) the board into the project leaving absolutely no gap in the seam.

That is what I try to reproduce often mistakenly by demanding my tools to be .000" accurate instead of developing the patience and skill to just do it.

Gotta add my .00002 worth!

"Good Enough" Means it does not 'need' to be any 'better'. That does not mean that attempting to improve it is meaningless, but rather the point of diminishing returns has been exceeded.

Nothing wrong with 'striving' for perfection, but if it becomes an objective unto itself, nothing will ever be complete.

I have to distinguish between stuff made, and stuff used to make it.

Alignment of the equipment should IMHO be as good as one can do so with reasonable investment of time.

However if it is being used to saw pallet parts, some very coarse adjustments are 'good enough'. If making furniture parts, very fine adjustments are required to be 'good enough'.

Good enough does not imply a negative connotation! It is merely a statement of fact.




Do pay attention to the super craftsman who resides here(and elsewhere). Any one who builds 'ships' has indeed a clear understanding of 'good enough'. Customers do not like getting their feet wet(below decks!). Especially the ones flush enough to afford the ships!:rolleyes:

[quote="JPG40504"]
Do pay attention to the super craftsman who resides here(and elsewhere). Any one who builds 'ships' has indeed a clear understanding of 'good enough'. Customers do not like getting their feet wet(below decks!).]



Agreed.

That term "flush" you used above denotes a whole other leak topic...


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http://personalmba.com/craftsmans-creed/

It is the person, not the tool.

What about cnc machines?

Is anyone here making stuff that cannot be made automatically by machine?

jm51 wrote:What about cnc machines?

Is anyone here making stuff that cannot be made automatically by machine?

In this day and age, it is doubtful.