Shopsmith Forums

BuckeyeDennis wrote:At work lately, I've been spending a serious amount of mind-numbing time studying various safety standards for machinery, and working a with professional safety-standards consultantcy as needed. UL, NFPA, IEC, CSA et. al. Though details vary, there is one underlying theme. To wit, a single fault should not seriously endanger a human, unless there is just no way around it. After all, things do fail.

The underlying principle of all the standards is that there should be no significant danger unless two or more things fail simultaneously. And that is one whale of a lot less likely.

So yes, properly training the operator can generally prevent injury from almost any device imaginable. But humans are at least as fallible as machines. It's good to have a backup/redundant safety measure. As in, "I got your back".

Regardless of your SawStop leanings, their technology has undoubtedly eliminated the "there is just no way around it" exception.

I am waiting for the chainsaw blade guard(no not the one you store it in).

BuckeyeDennis wrote:At work lately, I've been spending a serious amount of mind-numbing time studying various safety standards for machinery, and working a with professional safety-standards consultantcy as needed. UL, NFPA, IEC, CSA et. al. Though details vary, there is one underlying theme. To wit, a single fault should not seriously endanger a human, unless there is just no way around it. After all, things do fail.

The underlying principle of all the standards is that there should be no significant danger unless two or more things fail simultaneously. And that is one whale of a lot less likely.

So yes, properly training the operator can generally prevent injury from almost any device imaginable. But humans are at least as fallible as machines. It's good to have a backup/redundant safety measure. As in, "I got your back".

Regardless of your SawStop leanings, their technology has undoubtedly eliminated the "there is just no way around it" exception.

Some years back I was at an OSHA meeting because two workers in three weeks had caused major damage to themselves and we were in jeopardy of being shut down. It was determined that each worker had caused their own accidents, however OSHA had determined that our company needed to do something different. I wanted to tell them "you can't cure stupid" but they would have said I did not do an adequate job of training and / or applicant screening (which may or may not have been the case). I was just far enough down and up the responsibility ladder that no matter what, it was going to be my fault.
I spoke when I shouldn't have but told the people from OSHA that if they could find what ever it was, training, equipment, job seeker pool or anything else so that this would not happene again, I would implement it(though I did NOT have that authority). Their reply was it was not their responsibility to determine what actions to take.
As a result, I sat with some of the engineers and we developed a fall prevention system that is still in use today. The company owner made a great deal of money selling the system because his was the only game in town and OSHA made the other contractors use that system.
As I read this thread, I wonder about the forces (and forcing) of change versus the volunteering of change and wonder if the legal wranglings of SawStop have hindered in the long term the quality of woodworking safety or enhanced what we will see. No opinions, just cogitation.
What does this add to the discussion? Probably nothing. We can never know the outcomes of the future because of changes or lack of change, in the past.

Be well,
Ben

One thing I find interesting is that the Euro standards and our US standards are not well aligned when it comes to things like table saws. The general belief is the US is far behind.

Logic would dictate that if the euro standards are better we should be adopting them. I'm not seeing that happening. Likewise it would seem that the euro standard would be grabbing hold of this technology but so far I'm not seeing that happen either.

I don't really follow this sort of thing but it does seem that more then safety is at play which is a shame.

I personally don't think I would ever buy another table saw but if I did I would have to really look at what I want and need out of one and if these things could be gotten with other tools. Things like guided saws do make a lot of sense for working on sheet goods. The claim is they are also safer for this sort of work. So yes I am looking at that a guide saw but not so much for safety but rather for the ease of use. I once had no use for them due to cost but that is changing.

The thing is for me it is not safety first when purchasing and I think that might be a typical hobby woodworkers response. Now if I did go with safety first it would change my tool buying but getting rid of my shopsmith and putting a sawstop in it's place would mean me not being able to have a shop, there is simply no room for a table saw and shopsmith and I can't see how to survive with out a table saw...........well in terms of my hobby anyway.

So what have I done in the past that is pretty similar, well car buying. If I were to get a new car today would I go for all the new crash avoidance options and the limits of which car to buy or get something less costly and without these added safety features. I'm in that zone now.

So are you looking at getting a sawstop to be safe but are you looking at getting a new car with all the new safety features or just settling on some of them. I take it you see the point. Most of us here spend hours in our cars and Lord knows car crashes can do far more then take a finger......

Ed

A new article, not much new but some pictures......

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/bosch ... w-lawsuit/

Ed

reible wrote:A new article, not much new but some pictures......

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/bosch ... w-lawsuit/

Ed

I read the article and I still don't like Glass and his methods. To me they are very consistent to my perception of the behavior of people in his profession.

It's very nice that it saves the blade....and the sausage.
https://youtu.be/3MaaxL8nGzI

To me safety is a personal thing and what YOU feel comfortable with, I have not stoked up a saw in 6 months, today I was ripping 6/4 Maple 3 1/8" out of a 6 1/2" wide board, the first cut left hand guiding and pressing to the fence, right hand fingers over the fence thumb and right fore finger at the back of the piece, I felt a bit uncomfortable on the first cut, but after that the next 3 where like basics. I have my comfort zone, then the push stick gets out, if much less.