Shopsmith Forums

dusty wrote:

jsburger wrote:

davebodner wrote:I'm gonna push back on the idea that kneeling is disrespectful--no shock this coming from me, right?

Throughout history, kneeling has generally been considered a very respectful pose, subservient even. I'm glad the protesting players chose to kneel rather than talk, spit, sit, pick their nose, or do any of a number of activities that actually would be disrespectful. You may reject the reasons for their protest (I don't), but I reject the charge of disrespect.

While I agree with you that kneeling is a sign of respect in many situations, not so with the flag. There are rules covering the flag and how to show proper respect and yes I they are non-binding. You are supposed to stand and face the flag or if you can't see the flag face the direction the music is coming from and either salute if in uniform or put your hand over your heart if in civilian cloths and if in civilian clothes you are supposed to remove your hat.

On a military installation they play reveille when the flag is raised at the start of the duty day and they play retreat when the flag is lowered at the end of the duty day. The music is played over the base's outdoor public address system. If you are walking on base and hear the music you are supposed to stop face the music and render the proper respect. If you are driving on base and hear the music you are supposed to pull over, get out of your vehicle, face the music and render the proper respect.

John, you are spot on correct in all that you have said here. However, you have used the words (supposed to).

I assume that todays active duty personnel are obligated to the same protocol and customs as were we. Unfortunately, this protocol is not uniformly complied with. Since these changes are occurring on military establishments, I am not at all surprised that they are occurring off post as well.

Go to a high school athletic event or to an American Legend baseball game. I think you will witness more of what we are talking about here.

The same rules no longer apply to the masses.

Hold a door open for someone and see just how surprised many people are. Jump up from a seat to go hold the door open for someone in a wheel chair. Same reaction . Those courtesies are no longer universally expected.

I guess I have gone a bit off topic here.

You are spot on Dusty. I used the words "supposed to" because the rules are non-binding except for the military. As you know part of the PFE exam for promotion contained questions about flag etiquette. There are many rules on how to display the flag. For example, when flying the flag at half staff it is first raised to the top and then lowered to half staff. When taking the flag down it is first raised to the top and then lowered all the way.

I walk with my wife and I always open the door for her everywhere we go and let her go in first. I drive 99%+ of the time and I always open her door when she gets in the car and when she gets out. Every once in a while an older person will comment about it.

Dusty you might oughta add "NOT" to an earlier post re firing folks.

WHOOPS!!!!!

Tain't thee Dusty, but it was Ed in Tampa.

Since this isnt about the supper bowl any longer ,,,,,,and every one is sore because people treat them rudely ,,,I have to ask where you folks are hanging out ? my wife and I go to the gym weekly ,there are 100s or more people per shift employed where I work,,,, they act like Christians ,,the grocery store is the same way ,,very few and far between people dont offer to lend a hand to some one in need,,,,most folks are very polite, some are not,,,,they are not Christians and not afraid to let you know,,,and it shows.,,when so I dont know where all the non respecting people are ?

[[[,except on the highways ]]] ,,,,

I dont know if these people you guys refer to are Christians ,or were raised as such,,, and I dont care , thats what freedom of religion means to me , Like 100s of 1000s of people ,,,,,I have respect for those who gave and defend that freedom ,, that kind of a gift doesnt come cheap ,no mater what political party you are on,,,I dont recall seeing any thing on the draft card asking if you were a republican or democrat,,,,why should being islamic or any thing else make any difference either.,
No where does it say Christians are here only to protect them.

Whats next if your party isnt in control you dont have to sign up ?

This goes a lot deeper then just the NFL , should we all kneel because a certain religion doesnt have to enlist?
If you want to protest some thing worth while you dont need to look very far.
The the last party in office divided the country .

Hope fully this bunch can resurrect what we once had.

Point is with all the money the NFL just gave to Roger Stokoe Goodell ,, they could chartered a bus or plane and gone to the places they are protesting this so called equality ,,,,and say,,,, what they want to ,,,,,,equality in every city and town is not as they claim,,,,America is not 100% as they claim ,,, with their money they could pay for air time on the TV and say what they have to say about who ever they had to say it about ,,,and than,,,, they would have had America's support ,. JMO sorry for the rant on your forum.

Let me just ask you folks this if I can,,,,, the next time you hear one of these protesters speak or see them kneel,,,, think about this ,,,,,, if Craftsman showed up at Shopsmith HQ tomorrow and took down the Shopsmith company sign ,,,,,,,and put up a Craftsman sign ,,,,and called it equality ,, would you agree with them that they had the right to do so ?

What these guys are protesting is not equality ,,,,a thief robbed a store at gun point and got shot after shooting at a cop ,,,,and they dont think the cop should have shot back,,,,,,,some of you wore the uniform ,, what if YOU were not allowed to shoot back? would there be any reason to be there in the first place ?

I do not dispute their right to protest. We all have that right. It is the way they did it.

YOU DO NOT PROTEST BY DIS-RESPECTING THE VERY SYMBOL OF THE COUNTRY THAT GIVES YOU THE FREEDOM TO PROTEST WITHOUT FEAR OF BEING ARRESTED BY THE GOVERNMENT!!!

jsburger wrote:I do not dispute their right to protest. We all have that right. It is the way they did it.

YOU DO NOT PROTEST BY DIS-RESPECTING THE VERY SYMBOL OF THE COUNTRY THAT GIVES YOU THE FREEDOM TO PROTEST WITHOUT FEAR OF BEING ARRESTED BY THE GOVERNMENT!!!

I do definitely agree with you on this, John. They have the right to protest without the fear of being arrested and they have not been arrested.

Public opinion seems to be against their protest but THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ARRESTED or EVEN CHARGED.

The whole thing is screwed up, Pro football players are paid by their audience, they play in stadiums most of which were audience funded. And they want to demonstrate to tell their audience how to think?

Does any worker have the right to demonstrate against the government while at work? Can't you see a assembly line worker taking a knee when the parts he is to install arrives at his position?

The whole thing is nuts. They are paid to play football, they are on the field for that purpose only. Their contractorial commitment says they will do so with respect both to this nation and its flag.

If they want to be involved in politics fine, but don't do it on my dime. I came to watch football not some paid guy make a political statement.

dusty wrote:Public opinion seems to be against their protest but THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ARRESTED or EVEN CHARGED.

Don't believe that there's a law to cover that. So noway to arrest them.

Ed in Tampa wrote:The whole thing is screwed up, Pro football players are paid by their audience, they play in stadiums most of which were audience funded. And they want to demonstrate to tell their audience how to think?

Does any worker have the right to demonstrate against the government while at work? Can't you see a assembly line worker taking a knee when the parts he is to install arrives at his position?

The whole thing is nuts. They are paid to play football, they are on the field for that purpose only. Their contractorial commitment says they will do so with respect both to this nation and its flag.

If they want to be involved in politics fine, but don't do it on my dime. I came to watch football not some paid guy make a political statement.

They were there and they played football which is what their contract likely obligates them to do. If their contract obligated them to place their hand on their heart while standing and facing the music - they just might do that, To not do that would be a breach of contract and that might result in them not getting paid.

Ed, get over it. These guys were not raised under the same ground rules as you and I and only time is going to reverse the trend (just like the trend got started to begin with).

As I said earlier, go to a high school athletic event today and then come back and report the disrespect that you observed. When I played American Legion Baseball if I had not gotten out of the dugout and paid my respects during the anthem, I would not have suited for the next game and would owe the coach laps around the outfield fence until he decided to tell me I could quit.

I don't know. Was I showing respect or was I just avoiding those awful laps. BTW, I ran many of them - not for disrespect to the flag but for laziness during practice (at least that is what the coach called it).

I was restricted from suiting up three times in my 4 year legion experience. I learned fairly well - "Don't do what my peers do, do what the coach says".

http://time.com/4955704/nfl-league-rule ... them-rule/



Here’s what the game operations manual says regarding the national anthem, according to an NFL spokesperson:

The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.

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I am pretty sure it was written when people understood english and before people decided to start eating tide pods.JMO