putttn wrote:Well Dusty I think my "case" is this: I purchased the SS thinking that with the vacuum I'd have a pretty clean environment in the small space I have for the shop. Not the case. I can hardly wait to do some sanding and see what the results ot that are! Made the comment that Festool has a system that works and that SS is 95% there, why not finish the job. It could be done. Wondered if I was doing something wrong.
Got a little challenge on the Festool thing and now my case has expanded to I paid less than half what a new SS would cost and I think I got a great system. Sure glad I'm not into this SS for $4,280.
You are right about choices but you forgot one important thing, justification. We all make choices then we justify those choices to assure ourselves that we made the right choice. All I'm saying is I believe SS can do better and I'd be thrilled if it worked to the extent that Festool made theirs work.
The SS forum is a great resource for information and I'm hoping that SS would come out with something that would solve the sawdust issue, especially when they have such a nice vacuum.
Sure don't mean to offend anyone here or challenge their choices/justifications but I think we'd all agree there is room for improvement from SS on this issue.
Puttn
Back to the issue of dust. Have you tried opening one or more ports on the dust collector? It seems like the machine moves air faster when it can breathe. Also how much blade is exposed? It seems the the more exposed the better the dust control. Lastly have you tried different settings on the lower saw guard. I have found the closer it is to the shield that is attached to the piece that runs between the trunions the better dust collection it does.
Whene mine adjusted perfectly I can make several cuts and only have a slight dusting directly under my shopsmith. The carriage itself usually has a little thicker pile but that is about it.
Ed
I had both the ports plugged so I'll try that. The blade was just above the board I was cutting so not much was exposed. I tried different settings on the lower saw blade and the results were pretty much the same. Actually had my wife come out to make sure something was going into the vac! I'll try the ports tomorrow to see if that makes a difference.
By the way, spent a few hours sanding a cabinet this afternoon, no dust, none, nada - it was great.
For what it is worth - the 3300 works fine for me when the lower saw guard is adjusted to meet the crossbar, the plastic tie bar guard is attached and the filter hood is fairly clean. The lower saw guard is pretty easy to adjust with the two knurled thumb screws.
Also the 3300 itself has to be "cleaned". By that I mean you have to tap the hood occasionally. If the hood is blown out taught - then it needs to be cleaned. I have noticed there is a big difference in performance of the 3300 right after cleaning the hood. Also, after I purchased and installed the larger hood there was a very noticeable increase in dust removal. - It took weeks of sawing/planning/routing to make the larger hood stand taught. (almost two collection bags full). I figure passage of air through the hood is the main factor in the passing of air through the nozzle. If there is a blockage of air on the downwind side of the fan - then not as much air will pass through the fan.
Just like a home floor vac - when the filter gets dirty the vac doesn't work as well. - OR - tie a flour sack over a floor fan (down wind side only). The sack will enlarge, but the fan won't pass as much air. Let that sack get dirty and the fan will pass less air. A situation like this can be directly compared to a 3300 when the hood gets dirty (less air passage). But what we want for our 3300s is maximum air flow!
I have also found that using two plugs when sweeping floors is more efficient than having plugs removed. As the PTWFE says, "These plugs help to muffle noise and slightly increase the suction power. If you desire, you can leave the inlets open to help filter dust from the air". I'm at a loss to explain why opening one or two of the plugs will increase air flow at the lower saw guard, but if it works - go for it.
Incidently - I squirted a little "Great Stuff" on the bolts/nuts that protrude into the space of the collection bag. Now those sharp bolts are covered & NO MORE TORN BAGS!
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
So how about hooking the festool vac to the shopsmith??? and while your at it hook the shopsmith vac up to the festool tool you are using??? Might be interesting.
What other things can cause the shopsmith or other tools to give off more then normal dust? I can think of a few things that might be worth checking into......
If I recall you said the machine was a used 510... now, have you looked at the serial number to see what year it was made? Does it have the two bearing quill?? The age factor/use factor could mean bearing wear that should be checked out... Remember even a 1974 model looks a lot like a 2004 and the upgrade kit works on all of them... a 500 could have had a label 510r but it might not. When you buy used it is much the same as getting a used car... it is buyer beware... they even sell serial number plates on ebay... so I could update my 1976 model to be a 2001, well to some people it would look that way anyway.
Blades, the proper blade used for the proper cutting operation makes a difference as does haveing a clean sharp blade. Sharp blades give you chips and less dust. How about the thickness of the blade, thin kerf cuts less material so you have chips and dust being made. If the blade were bent or the bearings worn, you are in effect using a wobble dado and taking out more wood then you should and thus more chips and dust would happen. Good blades are worth it. Take a look at the cut edges, they should look clean cut and reasonable smooth. Check them with a square in all directions... When you hold it towards a light you should not see light anywhere along where the square is on the wood.
As was mentioned before you can either buy or make your own zero clearance table inserts, besides being required with cutting thin parts they also tend to keep sawdust below the table where they can get sucked up. Shopsmith has a collection of inserts so make sure the one you are using is the one for normal cutting.... check the catalog if you are not sure.
How about alignment, did you go though all the steps and make sure you have the machine set-up right? If the table is mis-aligned to the blade then again you will be causing extra dust and chips. How about the speed setting, the dial can say one thing but unless the highspeed calibration has been done or you have a tach to check the speed you don't really know if you are running at the proper speed.
I think I recall you needing to bend something... not a good sign, things should fit with out bending so this might be something to look at. Is the bottom guard working like it should?? Is it in the proper place under the table and adjusted??? Are all the parts in place? When I got my used 510 it had a lot of things wrong....... and I mean a LOT. I'm sure the guy I got it from hates shopsmith because the machine worked so poorly... he had the saw blades mouted backwards!!!, the high speed adjustment was so far off at saw speed it wasn't even at half that.... the belt was slipping and well the list is quite long....
A lot also has to do with the material being cut, mdf, especially the garden varity stuff they sell ends up turning to dust with very little real chips. Chips are what you want, they are showing you that things are working right.... lot of fine dust can mean things are not right...
I went to Woodcraft yesterday and spent about 3 hours with the Festool representative. I was shown the plunge saw (circular saw), the domino (biscuit jointer), the sander (random orbital) and a router in operation with Festools midsize dust collector. All of the work was done on a Festool MFT (multifunction table). Myself and two others for three hours.
Festool has put together a very versatile and somewhat interdependent set of shop tools. When functioning together, they work very well. I was reasonably impressed with how well the tools interrelate with their intended spt accessories.
But this visit was really about dust. There was none (oh, really there was very, very little). Everything being relative, there was none. Why? Because it is a sealed system. Not because the DC is so much better.
We could demonstrate that but it would be more costly than this discussion warrants IMHO. Adaptors would be required to intermix Festool with the rest. Festool is metric. Everything fits almost but not just right.
Enough said (at least by me) about Festool and Dust Collection. The system does perform as advertised. It collects better than 90 percent of the dust generated. Festool has done an impressive job with their entire tool line.
But, do your research if you are thinking about adding one into an existing shop system. Do 'due diligence' or you will regret!
___________________
Making Sawdust Safely
Thanks guys. I have a 1995 model that's hardly been used. I will check everything today and give it another test run. Can't use the Festool on the SS unless I get different adaptors for the hoses. Different sizes. Besides, I want to use the SS vac since I thnk it's a good one.
Glad you got a chance to see the Festool system and didn't come back thinking I was nuts. 3 hours is pretty impressive for a salesman to spend showing the system, wish they'd taken 3 hours with me! There was a lineup to see it when I went to Woodcraft.
Anyway some duct tape could adapt the vacuum systems??? It would be interesting to see what difference the two vacuums make to the systems.
This is a little off the subject but since this thread has been a lot of places...
The conversion of the 510 to 520 system is on sale until the end of the month and if you like the feel of things working together well then I would advise you to invest in that upgrade. (555982)
(I know some people here love the 510... this is in no way ment to diminish that.) I have had a 500 that I upgraded to a 520, a got a used 510 and debated if I wanted to spend the money to upgrade to the 520. After using the 510's system and having a 520 to compair it to well it didn't take long for me to see fit to spend the $$. The 520 system of rails and the new fence are in my opinion well worth having. You also get the rip scale upgrade which is nice as well. To me it makes the system feels like a whole new and improved system with a nicer fit and smoother operations.
I would also look at the following list for things you might not have:
The 5-foot tube set (521942)
The extension table brackets (555997)
The table height adjustable stop collar (555937)
Either the foot switch (522407) or the wireless on/off switch (556021) for your dust collector.
The utility vacuum extension collector (555582)
The bench/drill press vise (555994)
(If you have the stacked dado blade then the shim set (521934))
Enough saw arbor hubs for at least a total of 4 blades worth (555130 or 555608)
The drum sander insert (555119) and the [vacuum attachment (555168)]
One of my favorite add-ons was the strip sander (555309)... I think everyone should have one of these.
I also see that the sale has various upgrades for the dust collections system like the larger hoods......... hoses/adapters.
This list will go a long way towards a better shopsmith experence, but is by no means very inclusive... Things like having several disc sanding disks with different sandpaper mounted (or at least one with the velcro system), same with the drum sanders, a couple make the work go faster. The 3-lever drill press handle works really well especial when using larger bits.... and of course storage space is always wecome, the roll under cabinets can be used under the machine or stacked and will start collecting all the attachments and parts you will want to have.
Reible, are you working for SS? Wow, that's quite a list. How much is all that costing? With the financial problems they're having they can use support from all of us. I think your duct tape idea might be a good one. I'm going to plug up some of those big areas where the sawdust can easily escape and can't think of anything that could do as good a job.
I would also look at the following list for things you might not have:
The 5-foot tube set (521942)
The extension table brackets (555997)
The table height adjustable stop collar (555937)
Either the foot switch (522407) or the wireless on/off switch (556021) for your dust collector.
The utility vacuum extension collector (555582)
The bench/drill press vise (555994)
(If you have the stacked dado blade then the shim set (521934))
Enough saw arbor hubs for at least a total of 4 blades worth (555130 or 555608)
The drum sander insert (555119) and the [vacuum attachment (555168)]
One of my favorite add-ons was the strip sander (555309)... I think everyone should have one of these.
Ed
I have everything on you list except the Shopsmith storage cabinets and drum sander insert and I agree it makes a great system. You actually forgot the most important item. The Lift Assist, because when you hit 50 lifting the headstock is no fun.
I use a 1,200 CFM dust colector but find it does not pull enough air through a 2 1/5" hose to collect most of the Shipsmith duct. So I connect the vacuum to the Shopsmith instead of the dust collector but for Lathe operation I use the my Dust Collector with multiple 4" hoses.
paulmcohen wrote:
I use a 1,200 CFM dust colector but find it does not pull enough air through a 2 1/5" hose to collect most of the Shipsmith duct. So I connect the vacuum to the Shopsmith instead of the dust collector but for Lathe operation I use the my Dust Collector with multiple 4" hoses.
I've been waiting for someone owing a larger dust collector to get into this thread. Can you tell us more about your larger DC? Have you ever tried the reducers to fit into your SS? I haven't thought that a 2" restriction for a short distance would effect the air movement very much. Would that be a problem? Sounds like you only use your larger DC for shop cleaning - right?
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
