Shopsmith Forums

[quote="JPG40504"]You make some very valid points(btw mid 40's is a good 'beginning']

Well, I hope that I, my Shopsmith 520, and Shopsmith the company are all still around in another 40+!

Using the Shopsmith to make things makes both me and my wife happy (I'm happy all the way through, even most of the time when "learning from my mistakes," and my wife is happy with the finished products), which will definitely help for the first two...

... and sometime down the road if my job is more secure a PowerPro upgrade from me might help a little towards ensuring the 3rd.

[quote="juwester"]I am not THAT young -- mid-40's . I prefer direct live contact, too, but it is not always practical, nor should it be necessary for simple order status inquiries. Perhaps the 1/2 hour+ wait times on the phone would be mere minutes if they dealt with simple requests via a better website and easy access to common questions about order status and shipping.

Someday when I'm retired (hopefully that day will come!) perhaps I will have the ability to sit on the phone for 1/2 plus to get a simple answer -- but the reality is that I would get fired if I did that at work -- it just is not practical. I realize that many of the best contributors on this board are retired (and I really appreciate all of the wisdom and help in all of the posts!), and have the time during weekdays, but surely that is not the way forward for Shopsmith?

If they are to thrive it will be on convincing folks like me and those younger to buy in and spend -- part of that requires adapting to reality and leveraging new technologies that can help them do well -- the phone only even if it takes ages mindset will doom them with folks younger than me. My nephews and nieces want to text me -- I don't do it -- but I'm not trying to sell stuff in a tough market! ]I have, for many years now, complained that no one is teaching the trades anymore. When I was in Junior High and High School I took classes that taught me basic electrical, automotive, plumbing and wood working. In my junior and senior years I had two two hour shop classes. They don't do that any more. High school education is basically fun or college preparatory.

I suddenly realized that if my kids and their significant others were going to know anything about the trades I was going to have to have a hand in it. None of my kids or grand kids are serious craftsmen but at least none of them need instructions on the use of general hand tools.

I have encouraged them to use the shop and they do. Often it is when I want to sleep but that is the way it is. One just left. He was here trying to decide what he could make in a hurry for his Christmas gift to mom.

dusty wrote:I have, for many years now, complained that no one is teaching the trades anymore. When I was in Junior High and High School I took classes that taught me basic electrical, automotive, plumbing and wood working. In my junior and senior years I had two two hour shop classes. They don't do that any more. High school education is basically fun or college preparatory.

I suddenly realized that if my kids and their significant others were going to know anything about the trades I was going to have to have a hand in it. None of my kids or grand kids are serious craftsmen but at least none of them need instructions on the use of general hand tools.

I have encouraged them to use the shop and they do. Often it is when I want to sleep but that is the way it is. One just left. He was here trying to decide what he could make in a hurry for his Christmas gift to mom.

They are not trying to prepare students to live their lives... They are just trying to teach them to pass tests... Nothing matters except test scores and resultant funding levels. The teachers want to teach but administrators and school boards see only the funding. They are also caught up around here in preparing the student to become fodder for big business. They want to prepare them for some specific job that will be gone before they get to it. They must get back to teaching them how to learn... If they can do that then the student can walk in anywhere and pick up the job skills needed quickly. If they have only been taught how to do one job and it changes they are useless. Let the factories train their own employees. Teach the student how to live their daily lives. Too many are getting out of school with out the most fundamental basic skills for daily living. Some like to say that they should learn that at home but it isn't happening. Many of them barely have a home. The job of the school is to prepare a student to live his life, not make him a labor supply for the benefit of business or make him into a "test passer". Sadly much of the time if they are not college prep they are considered back shelf material.
I was just reading about a documentary tackling this called "Race to Nowhere". Some folks are waking up...

robinson46176 wrote:They are not trying to prepare students to live their lives... They are just trying to teach them to pass tests... Nothing matters except test scores and resultant funding levels. The teachers want to teach but administrators and school boards see only the funding. They are also caught up around here in preparing the student to become fodder for big business. They want to prepare them for some specific job that will be gone before they get to it. They must get back to teaching them how to learn... If they can do that then the student can walk in anywhere and pick up the job skills needed quickly. If they have only been taught how to do one job and it changes they are useless. Let the factories train their own employees. Teach the student how to live their daily lives. Too many are getting out of school with out the most fundamental basic skills for daily living. Some like to say that they should learn that at home but it isn't happening. Many of them barely have a home. The job of the school is to prepare a student to live his life, not make him a labor supply for the benefit of business or make him into a "test passer". Sadly much of the time if they are not college prep they are considered back shelf material.
I was just reading about a documentary tackling this called "Race to Nowhere". Some folks are waking up...

In my openion kids are not being taught anything these days other than sex and drugs. In the states of Tennessee, Virginia and Florida, kids don't even know how to make change unless they have a cash register that tells them how much change to give back. I blame the teachers, they have become baby sitters and not educators. They leave it up to the parents to give the education. Things have sure changed since I went to school. Woe is all of us. The USA is sure in trouble in the next hundred years. Kids will have mush for brains for sure. Just my openion, I'm sure you have yours. Lee

Splinters N Chips wrote:In my openion kids are not being taught anything these days other than sex and drugs. In the states of Tennessee, Virginia and Florida, kids don't even know how to make change unless they have a cash register that tells them how much change to give back. I blame the teachers, they have become baby sitters and not educators. They leave it up to the parents to give the education. Things have sure changed since I went to school. Woe is all of us. The USA is sure in trouble in the next hundred years. Kids will have mush for brains for sure. Just my openion, I'm sure you have yours. Lee

If we could have a summit meeting on this, we might be able to strike an accord.

I agree that some schools and some teachers are lacking the skills and aptitude to deal with the needs of the classroom but I do not believe that is the fault of the teacher.

The fault, in my opinion, comes right back to the parents and persons they allow to sit on the school board and in state level congressional seats.

This country is to be managed by:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Splinters N Chips wrote:In my openion kids are not being taught anything these days other than sex and drugs. In the states of Tennessee, Virginia and Florida, kids don't even know how to make change unless they have a cash register that tells them how much change to give back. I blame the teachers, they have become baby sitters and not educators. They leave it up to the parents to give the education. Things have sure changed since I went to school. Woe is all of us. The USA is sure in trouble in the next hundred years. Kids will have mush for brains for sure. Just my openion, I'm sure you have yours. Lee

FWIW I have an acquaintance of my age who does not know how to figger change either.
What's is really interesting(sic) is trying to tell a clerk that they have 'made a mistake'. They have no ability to ascertain that!

I feel empathy(sorry) for them since they are embarrassed by their ineptness and become 'defensive'.

I also have some friends of not quite so advanced in years that think it is the bank's job to do their bookkeeping(check register etc.).

Perhaps the reason 'life skills' are no longer taught, is the 'educators' do not have them!:eek:

dusty wrote:If we could have a summit meeting on this, we might be able to strike an accord.

I agree that some schools and some teachers are lacking the skills and aptitude to deal with the needs of the classroom but I do not believe that is the fault of the teacher.

The fault, in my opinion, comes right back to the parents and persons they allow to sit on the school board and in state level congressional seats.

This country is to be managed by:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

That's the way Jefferson and the boys wanted it a hundred plus years ago. However, WE THE PEOPLE have lost most if not all the control. We still have a voice, but it doesn't seem to matter any more politicians, teachers, and so call leaders just do what they want to and to h##l with what the public wants. For example perhaps you have wanted the school system to not use a certain book for teaching a subject. Hit a real stumbling block to have it banned didn't you?

My Mom and Dad attended a one room school. Kids were TAUGHT from the first thru 12th grade. One teacher for the entire school. However most of the kids only went to school for 3 or 4 years. The rest of the time was spent working on the farm. Yet, the kids learned how to read write and do math. The teachers taught them, not the parents, because parents did not know how themselves. They were taught because the teachers wanted to give the kids a better chance at life. I think the teachers hands are tied today by the school system. The system tells teachers what to teach and what books to use. Parents don't have a say at all. I still say kids are not taught today. Oh well, again just an openion, you have yours, and you have that right, at least today you do. Who knows about tomorow. Lee

It is time for a Shatner perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipe5EjcchvY

At one time I blamed the school for the problems but that is not always the case. I know one teacher that finished college with a masters and he could look you straight in the face and tell you he has NEVER read a book in their life.

I have a daughter that is a teacher so I see the other side. Kids fifth graders that actual threaten physical harm to the teacher. Kids packing guns to school. Kids having sex contest in school. Even when the kids are caught red handed when the parents come to school the first thing they say is their kid wouldn't do such a thing and threaten lawsuits if any action is taken. Unfortunately there are Lawyers that will represent them. In our area each school has a cop physically stationed in each school as a "resource officer".

I see doctors prescribeing drugs for kids that were simply never taught to behave. I see teachers demanding student be given these drugs. And I see parents too busy with their own lives to even care about the kids as long as the kids aren't bothering them.

I see people behaving badly acting like they are somehow normal. Most of the time it is because they have never been taught the most basic human behavior. They were sent to day care where instead of be nurtured they had to learn to fend for themselves. Then with no discipline they were sent into the school system to learn but the school system was consummed by trying to keep them in control. They live in society where integrity and honesty isn't considered as important as how big a car/house/pay check you have.

They then enter the workforce usually with thousands of dollars in student loans hanging over their heads and learn the most business is run by people that care about one thing and one thing only how to get "theirs" and the heck with everything else. They quickly get into the chasing the carrot grind and become parents that are too busy to even know what their kids are doing. They live with the inconvience of having to take the kid to day care but they suffer through. When called to school they have learned from business to try to deny and bull their way through. They hold their breath and pray the kids don't do anything until they are free of them. And thus the cycle repeats.

The problem is society has lost focus of what is really important in their head long rush to get ahead.

Since we got this thread off subject and on to the subject of schools and training let me say this. I think the day is quickly approaching that technical trading (shop classes) will return.

I'm of the opinion that to enter the corporate world which once as a terrific idea is now a really bad idea. I think students that will be in the best shape in future will be those that have a profession that will allow them to be on their own.

Look at your average college student most leave college with $100,000 in student loans and 5 years out of their lives. Look at your average tech school grad, they have been earning excellent money doing those five years and they don't have a student loan.

Add the loan and 5 years lost wages and you quickly realize that a college grad is going to have to go for a long time to break even if they ever do. I know many tech school grads that are out pacing many college grad in pay.

As our economy continues to crumble I believe those that can make something with their hands are going to be huge demand and those that were taught to shuffle papers and look busy ( I were one) are going to be trouble.

Also have you noticed how the focus has shifted from "save our trees" to "trees are a renewable resource". We are seeing the death of plastic injection molded furniture and the return of real wood furniture. We are seeing an end of the chemically impregnated prebuilt home and the return of stick built.

Thud! I just fell off my soap box so I will be quiet now.