Shopsmith Forums

JPG40504 wrote:The frustrating part of this is the total lack of understanding 'personal risk management' today. i.e. If I get hurt, it is because 'somebody else' did or did not 'do something differently'. I fault lawyers and the juries that make their pursuit(pun indended) lucrative. But I digress!:(

You know... some day some company is going to get the bright idea to counter sue the original claimant for being an idiot.

About that picture though, it looks dangerous. The publisher should assume the responsibility to show the proper use of safety gear. A narrow piece like that should also have the feather board in use.

So, to carry that a little further, what exactly needs to be clear? you have a saw blade, the wood goes into the front of the blade intact and comes out the back of the blade cut in two. I don't need to see the kerf 'for clarity'. I think that safety equipment should be used in all pictures to reinforce just how important it is to use it, and how to use it correctly.

When I was in charge of a fabrication department I would, safely, stop a saw operator who did not use the saw guard. I banned two people from using the saw forever because they both took the guard off a second time. One got fired and the other got placed on another shift. While on that shift he lost his thumb, fore finger and middle finger at the table saw.

I understand that there is no 100% safe, but if you use the safety gear you are most likely thinking about safety. The key word here: "thinking".

Please excuse my rant

Lots of good points but I'll play a little devil's advocate here and agree with Shipwright. There is no better safety equipment than experience and respect for the tool. The magazine isn't the reader's shop nanny, either. I laugh at all the disclaimers that are present on every consumer product these days. They are so much a fixture in our lives that no one bothers to read them. That seems counter productive to me. How often do you guys really read that long safety sheet on the headstock of your newer Shopsmiths? (It's so tacky )

What I'm really hearing from you gentlemen is that YOU DO pay attention to what you are doing (otherwise you wouldn't think twice about this photo) and I commend you for that. That's what everyone should do. I've never lost a finger, none of my family members have lost a finger (although I had an uncle that lost his hand in a thresher), and none of my family's table saws have upper guards on them. Opinions are always shaped by our experiences so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T USE A GUARD so I don't want to hear about it. I am saying I think some might be a bit critical of the magazine photo. I was in the Navy Seabees and I've seen plenty of training programs that show missing digits, flesh striped off fingers from rings being caught, loose clothes in spinning shafts, etc. Plus, some of you have shown me your scrapes.

-Respect for the power of the tool
-Situational awareness
-Attentiveness

You can't sell those in a kit and you can't print them on every Shopnotes photo. My dad constantly preached, "Pay attention to what you are doing and what you're about to do!" I feel like you can shove a thumb under a plastic guard just as easily as a 1 x 4. Plus, in my very humble opinion, if you can't see the cut you really don't know if you're putting the piece in a bind and you can't always feel it with a good, sharp blade.

I also agree with tdubnick: take the time to set up your cut. I also agree with Farmer that that's what fences, feather boards and push sticks are for. Personally, I'm not comfortable resting my hand on the fence in front of the blade. I'm concerned with the geometry and trajectory of my digits in relation to the spinning wheel of death, but if the gentleman in the photo has the expertise and knows his equipment, that's his decision. It's the reader's decision too.

Occasionally, I wonder about my yuppie friend who grew up in Austin and didn't know the difference between a jig saw and a circular saw until I taught him. He's the kind of guy I'm worried about. Does a photo like that set a bad example for him or is it still his responsibility to become educated? That's a rhetorical question. I feel good about him in particular because he has educated himself. JPG pointed out the paradoxical result of the attempt to save us from ourselves. It has the unintended consequences of laziness and hiding in plain sight. Maybe I'm being cold, but a certain number of unfortunate accidents are just unpreventable, especially when the user is not going to take the time to be informed (that's a necessary life lesson no matter what you're doing). Let's be cautious and aware of what's going on, but we can't keep every idiot out there from losing a few digits, and we certainly shouldn't lay the blame on a magazine for a single shot. How many other pictures and articles in that same magazine not only show proper safety equipment but STRESS it too? Dasgud, your point about showing safety equipment is well taken and I agree to a large extent, but EVERY shot? Perhaps we jumped on the criticism bandwagon here?

OK, I'll take my tongue-lashing now.

Well said Dalton! There consider yerself 'lashed'!:D

Every once in a while a small voice of rational sanity rises above the PC din.

Unfortunately it is usually 'disregarded'. Keep trying!:) Your 'upbringing' is correct. Be thankful!;)

To All Those Concerned About Woodworking Safety,

All the guys out their who say they have been around this kind of equipment for years and years so "its okay" that they don't use safety guards are setting a bad and dangerous example for all woodworkers.

I myself have worked around dangerous machinery all my life (factories, autoshops, the US Navy, woodshops, newspaper presses, etc.) and I NEVER operate my equipment until I place my safety guards on my tools.

I can't count the number of times that the person I was working with who told me that these kind of safety procedures don't apply to them due to experience are the ones who came away with the worst injuries. Experience should tell you that the safety guards are the most important part of any type of tool.

The use of guards was ingrained in me when I watched my best friend lose two fingers on a tablesaw while in 8th grade woodshop. The shop teacher thought that guards took to long to teach us kids about. After this horrible accident, every tool that could have a guard on it, did.

And just two months ago, a friend of mine who has operated a furniture shop for more than forty years had his fingers get caught in a spinning grinding wheel. He said this happened because he couldn't see how well he was sharpening his lathe chisels, so he removed the plastic guards from his grinder. He said he was able to move his hand further up on the chisel because the guard was no longer there, a little slip and bam, the skin and flesh on three of his fingers was stripped off. The guard might not of actually prevented the injury, but it can serve as a warning that you are getting to close to those sharp, spinning objects on your tools. And this was the first major injury he had ever experienced in the shop. This shows that no matter how old you are or how much experience you have, you can never say never.

Myself, after 30 yrs., haven't gotten injured by any tools yet. The number one rule in my shop is safety, and the number one tools in my shop are my safety tools and guards. So, those of you just starting out, please use the safety guards on your tools.

For those of you who think safety equipment is beyond your experience, please use the safety guards on your tools. The experience you say you have should have taught you this. And please don't advertise the fact you feel these guards are unecessary, it sets a bad example to those just starting out in the adventure of woodworking. I'd hate to read a post from someone who writes about an injury, saying that so-and-so on the Shopsmith Forum said they don't use their safety guards, so I didn't either, and guess what happened. How will you feel then?

I'm sure I'll get an eyeful about this, but that's okay. Let the flood gates open.

My son and I were making cuttingboards over the holidays. I've always taught him to stand to either side of the blade, but never in front or behind it. As expected, I got a lot of "Oh, yeah, sure Dad replies." We were cutting the board strips and the blade caught the wood. It sailed, crashed and slammed into the wall behind the saw....... I didn't have to repeat my instructions again! I was using my new 520 upgrade. I think I had it set up "too square" I angled the outfeed side of the fence out a halfa smudge and didn't have the problem again.

That being said, I always use the lower saw guard. I still struggle to use the upper guard. I find it hard to set up and I feel that I've lost control when I can't see the blade contact the wood... Suggestions?

Amusing, some of the replies in this thread, considering the comments made in this thread:
https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=5967
about this proceedure:

There is no rationalization that justifies not using a guard whenever possible. You can be experienced, knowledgeable, and attentitive........and Murphy's Law will still "get ya" eventually. Emergency rooms report that they see more experienced/professionals than newbes.

Yes. Safety is a frame of mind, but is only one half of a double edged sword. Never think that you are justified in not using the fine safety equipment that Shopsmith has provided for us.

8iowa wrote:There is no rationalization that justifies not using a guard whenever possible. You can be experienced, knowledgeable, and attentitive........and Murphy's Law will still "get ya" eventually. Emergency rooms report that they see more experienced/professionals than newbes.

Yes. Safety is a frame of mind, but is only one half of a double edged sword. Never think that you are justified in not using the fine safety equipment that Shopsmith has provided for us.

You know, after reading my post I came across as one of those guys who says, "well I don't do it and nothing has ever happened to me." Murphy does have a way of catching us. In hindsight, those statements were irrelevant to the topic at hand. My point wasn't that my family doesn't use them, but rather, most of those saws are so old, I don't know if they ever had them. Grandad's has a riving knife and a home made shield in front but not a blade. It's very true that no amount of experience is the be all, end all. I wanted to make it clear that guards aren't either.

My biggest issue was with the vilification of the magazine, not to advocate neglecting best practices. Sorry if that's what came across but I think I made it clear that wasn't my point. My issue with guards is that they don't save you from everything unless you also use good sense.

That vertical ply cutting image is pretty funny in this context. Stay safe everyone!

I think the 'vertical' cutting of sheet goods is not 'funny'. It is an excellent illustration of how perceptions have changed during the past half century.

I am sure anyone who is less than half my 'age' thinks that picture is ridiculous in that no one in their right mind would even consider such a hazardous task.

At the time it was published, it would have been considered a possible 'solution' to a simple problem(panel saws had not yet been thunk of).

My previous posts were not intended to be recommending total disregard for any currently available safety devices, but more so to lament the desensitization to personally consciously keeping awareness of hazards present when performing hazardous tasks.

In the process I recounted my own lack of using devices that are currently available[but have not been in the past on the older equipment I use] and related my being accustomed to being able to 'see' the cutting action of the blade and thus gain an early warning of impending escalation of potential danger.

That should NOT be interpreted as a blanket recommendation for any one to NOT use guards, but was intended to be illustrative of how being vigilant of hazards and their observation to 'self prevent' their catastrophic results.

I also was lamenting the mindset that seems(to me anyway) prevalent today. The everything/everybody must be shielded from 'danger' and we will thus live out our days in this utopian environment completely free of harm and therefore have no need to 'worry'! That be noggin in a deep kitty litter box.

Now sure as I have said I have never had a kick back, it will probably occur in a very short while! However I can say I have seen precursors of it occurring and have been able to 'head it off'(so far). Proper alignment of the fence/blade is CRITICAL!!!

As far as those 'I have been doing this for x years and am 'experienced' so I do not need them(they slow me down and just get in the way)' folks, I agree they are an accident waiting to happen. Familiarization can/does breed carelessness(inattentiveness).

In an employer/employee situation, the employer has a responsibility to enforce safety rules/practices. The employee needs to understand compliance is mandatory!***

Keep in mind the requirement to think things through b4 and paying attention during are what (helps) prevent 'accidents'. That is IMHO all too often missing when 'accidents' occur regardless of if the 'victim' is a newbie or an old pro.

Yes I have had some 'near misses', but had I not either/both perceived their possible occurrence or observed the 'early warning' signs they could have been real harmful events. TBTG inattention has not struck(yet?). Point here is always be 'alert'(that applies even with safety devices).

I cannot end this without mentioning that the SS has a unique hazard not found on cabinet saws. If one has not mounted the lower guard with the saw blade, the portion of the blade under the table is grossly exposed! Now consider that there are other things under there as well. Operator Controls! Needless to say 'awareness' becomes prudent. I am not recommending sawing without it(if you have one), but if ya do, WATCH IT!

*** It is the disregard for this during the Sawguard 'incident' that infuriates me. Ryobi was not responsible for either the employer or the employee either ignoring or being unaware of their 'duty'.

JPG40504 wrote:...TBTG inattention has not struck(yet?)...

What does TBTG stand for?