[quote="dusty"]This entire discussion of excess heat being generated by the PowerPro confuses me.
Nearly all of the heat generating "friction" devices have been eliminated and the motor is now a low power, high efficiency device.
Why excess heat? Is the headstock packed too tight to allow air circulation? Why only some PowerPro's and not all of them? Is it a duty cycle issue]
Think of the electronic control devices as electrical friction inducers. Think of the motor coils as heating elements.
Not perfect analogies, but close enough for illustration.
New PowerPro Issues
Moderator: admin
-
JPG
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 35598
- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
- Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝
Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝
Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
-
dusty
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 21530
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
JPG40504 wrote:Think of the electronic control devices as electrical friction inducers. Think of the motor coils as heating elements.
Not perfect analogies, but close enough for illustration.
What motor coils. This is a new motor that draws less current. At Lowe's I think I was told less than 3 amps.
Does the PowerPro motor actually get hot. Maybe no one can answer that. Can you touch it or is it buried to deep to touch it.
Maybe the belts create the heat at these high speeds.
Easy solution!:rolleyes: Don't operate at speeds higher than the 510/520 (7200 rpm).
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Electronic things which use components that generate excessive amounts of heat, use heat sinks as a passive method of cooling whenever possible. These heat sinks are usually aluminum and have many, many fins which provide more surface area for heat to migrate by simple convective air flow in keeping cool the electronics on the other side of the heatsink. If a heatsink by itself won't work then a muffin fan- a small or tiny fan- fan is used to help. Then if that doesn't work, you'll see water/antifreeze being used in special heat exchangers which circulate the water or an antifreeze solution over the hot areas.
Anyone who has looked under a car hood has seen the radiator and a fan. As long as the car is moving at maybe 25 mph or faster, the fan is no longer needed as just the car moving at speed will be enough to keep it heat exchange process through the radiator active & far better than a tiny fan while the car idles at 750-800 rpm. In fact to reduce drag, many radiator fans have vicous clutches that prevent it from creating any drag. I notice down south, police cars will open their hoods if they have to keep their cars running on a 95 degree or hotter day to keep their engine from overheating. Why? Because heat rises.
Getting back to electronics and Shopsmith land, the motor looks to me to be enclosed in one huge heatsink. Plus I learned yesterday there are two fans inside the motor. I also learned during the recalibration process that one of the heat sink temperatures is monitored. On mine it was about 22-23 degrees C which is about 70 degree F. That is normal as I hadn't had the Power Pro on for more than a few minutes. The one heat sink that concerns me is the one located on the underside of the new control module. I guarantee there are large current capacity semi-conductors attached to the other side of that heatsink with thin mica washers or this white heatsink or grease compound which it seems once it gets on your hands, it gets on everything. It's the same compound for you who are not afraid to work on your own computers & is on the top of the large CPU along with a heatsink which might also have a tiny muffin fan on top of it. I used to experiment with computers and "over clock" them- I made them run in many cases, twice as fast as they were designed to. How? I used a way over-sized heatsink I bought from Japan which had a large fan attached on top of it. Inside the old tower case desktop computers, there was plenty of run to do stuff like that. I would get a $50 CPU and make it out perform a $300 Pentium II back in those days until I got over the over clocking bug. Cause once you are bit, you want more & more speed without burning up an expensive CPU, but once completed, my kids used that computer for 4-6 years.
Some guys even used water-cooling solutions which worked like a radiator in a car, except the CPU has a heat exchanger with a input & output connection/pathway for the cooling solution to flow. When it flowed, it would cool the CPU & transferring the heat to the antifreeze which would be routed to a fan & that heat would be removed from the solution and the cycle continues. Or for you who have central air conditioning systems, it's the same basic process on a huge scale in your home. Hoid your hand over the outside condenser when it is running and you'll feel heat- that is the heat which is being removed from your house.
Sorry to drag on, but I'm trying to relate this concept with concepts most people already know. But anyhow, getting back to the Power Pro, that heatsink on the bottom in most cases when the way tubes are horizontal, is located on the underside of the control unit. Having down some design work, this was not an arbitrary decision, but one of necessity as a result of the limited space inside the headstock with the new control panel & DVR motor. Had the wedge lock rod not had to go any further away, it would of never fit. There was barely enough room to get the wedge locks back inside the head stock as it was.
Having worked with Wes from Shopsmith yesterday , I will be talking to him once my new idler assy comes as it appears I got one with bearings that don't like high speeds. I'll ask him how temperature is monitored & were the greatest amount of heat is generated.
But all of you here know that saw dust (for those of you who really do your maintenance) can build up inside the headstock because not many people use more than a shop vac to suck the wood chips while the really fine wood dust is going where ever it wants to and gets inside the head stock, as well as our lungs <cough, cough>. With the requirement gone for lubricating the sheave speed system control pieces, that ought to help. I won't recommend everyone go out & buy a 5 HP 1000 cfm cyclone dust collector which is really the only effective way to collect every piece of wood dust, but rather, just undo the side screws on the belt cover, pull it off & use compressed air to keep the inside of the head stock clean as that will prevent dust buildup on the heat sinks and increase their efficiency.
But if you guys are noticing a problem, we need to ascertain were it's coming from or we risk simply assuming something which may or may not be true. It might just be applicable to a certain number of Power Pros. In my conversation with Wes- we were on the phone a long time, I do not believe he was in on the design, but he is the guy who will assist any of us with Power Pro issues for those of us who did our own mod. I thought the mod on was one of the best prepared mods I ever did in almost 40 years of doing stuff like this as it included all the special tools & a drilling jig that made such that any idiot could easily accomplish it- even me... In my case I got tired of waiting for my shop to be emptied of the furniture being stored and bought another used Mark V 510 - a 1991 model- but it came with a Incra TS-111 and a MArk V planer and a lot more as my Shopsmith stuff is packed in the back of my basement & there is no access.
For those of you who have never done mods like this. One or more people will design it & then the mod is tested every which way. Shopsmith probably did it themselves and then got volunteers to complete the mod in every type of headstock long before they printed the instruction manual. Some might call this beta testing. Well after beta comes what some call the gold standard test where some more mods will be accomplished by people who had no involvement or knowledge of the mod- just like those of us who did the mod and notes/comments are collected and included in the instructions or perhaps n worse cases, they might have to go back to the drawing board and figure out other methods to fix a problem. But the first step is to verify & define the problem using findings actually found. It's the same method any major manufacturer corrects problems with inferior components or design flaws in they want to stay in business.
I haven't used my Power Pro to know enough yet. But I will be replacing an idler shaft which requires I take out the idler shaft because of high speed vibration issue(s) because of bad bearings. I might just turn it on for an hour and let it heat up & when I take it apart, I will use my most used test instruments- my fingers to actually feel the heat sinks. I have a laser temp gauge somewhere & I will first use that & record the temps I find as well. That is in my humble opinion the way to go about it.
I did notice on the belt cover, a silver plate. A tiny fan might just fit in there, but then a power source will be needed to power it. Many of these tiny fans us a small DC voltage- either 5 volts or 12 volts DC to power them. But that is just a thought. I have to finish a renovation upstairs or I will have to find a new spousal unit after 37 1/2 years. She is very tolerant of me and my Shopsmith addiction. Hi, my name is Tony and I am a Shopsmith addict..
Anyone who has looked under a car hood has seen the radiator and a fan. As long as the car is moving at maybe 25 mph or faster, the fan is no longer needed as just the car moving at speed will be enough to keep it heat exchange process through the radiator active & far better than a tiny fan while the car idles at 750-800 rpm. In fact to reduce drag, many radiator fans have vicous clutches that prevent it from creating any drag. I notice down south, police cars will open their hoods if they have to keep their cars running on a 95 degree or hotter day to keep their engine from overheating. Why? Because heat rises.
Getting back to electronics and Shopsmith land, the motor looks to me to be enclosed in one huge heatsink. Plus I learned yesterday there are two fans inside the motor. I also learned during the recalibration process that one of the heat sink temperatures is monitored. On mine it was about 22-23 degrees C which is about 70 degree F. That is normal as I hadn't had the Power Pro on for more than a few minutes. The one heat sink that concerns me is the one located on the underside of the new control module. I guarantee there are large current capacity semi-conductors attached to the other side of that heatsink with thin mica washers or this white heatsink or grease compound which it seems once it gets on your hands, it gets on everything. It's the same compound for you who are not afraid to work on your own computers & is on the top of the large CPU along with a heatsink which might also have a tiny muffin fan on top of it. I used to experiment with computers and "over clock" them- I made them run in many cases, twice as fast as they were designed to. How? I used a way over-sized heatsink I bought from Japan which had a large fan attached on top of it. Inside the old tower case desktop computers, there was plenty of run to do stuff like that. I would get a $50 CPU and make it out perform a $300 Pentium II back in those days until I got over the over clocking bug. Cause once you are bit, you want more & more speed without burning up an expensive CPU, but once completed, my kids used that computer for 4-6 years.
Some guys even used water-cooling solutions which worked like a radiator in a car, except the CPU has a heat exchanger with a input & output connection/pathway for the cooling solution to flow. When it flowed, it would cool the CPU & transferring the heat to the antifreeze which would be routed to a fan & that heat would be removed from the solution and the cycle continues. Or for you who have central air conditioning systems, it's the same basic process on a huge scale in your home. Hoid your hand over the outside condenser when it is running and you'll feel heat- that is the heat which is being removed from your house.
Sorry to drag on, but I'm trying to relate this concept with concepts most people already know. But anyhow, getting back to the Power Pro, that heatsink on the bottom in most cases when the way tubes are horizontal, is located on the underside of the control unit. Having down some design work, this was not an arbitrary decision, but one of necessity as a result of the limited space inside the headstock with the new control panel & DVR motor. Had the wedge lock rod not had to go any further away, it would of never fit. There was barely enough room to get the wedge locks back inside the head stock as it was.
Having worked with Wes from Shopsmith yesterday , I will be talking to him once my new idler assy comes as it appears I got one with bearings that don't like high speeds. I'll ask him how temperature is monitored & were the greatest amount of heat is generated.
But all of you here know that saw dust (for those of you who really do your maintenance) can build up inside the headstock because not many people use more than a shop vac to suck the wood chips while the really fine wood dust is going where ever it wants to and gets inside the head stock, as well as our lungs <cough, cough>. With the requirement gone for lubricating the sheave speed system control pieces, that ought to help. I won't recommend everyone go out & buy a 5 HP 1000 cfm cyclone dust collector which is really the only effective way to collect every piece of wood dust, but rather, just undo the side screws on the belt cover, pull it off & use compressed air to keep the inside of the head stock clean as that will prevent dust buildup on the heat sinks and increase their efficiency.
But if you guys are noticing a problem, we need to ascertain were it's coming from or we risk simply assuming something which may or may not be true. It might just be applicable to a certain number of Power Pros. In my conversation with Wes- we were on the phone a long time, I do not believe he was in on the design, but he is the guy who will assist any of us with Power Pro issues for those of us who did our own mod. I thought the mod on was one of the best prepared mods I ever did in almost 40 years of doing stuff like this as it included all the special tools & a drilling jig that made such that any idiot could easily accomplish it- even me... In my case I got tired of waiting for my shop to be emptied of the furniture being stored and bought another used Mark V 510 - a 1991 model- but it came with a Incra TS-111 and a MArk V planer and a lot more as my Shopsmith stuff is packed in the back of my basement & there is no access.
For those of you who have never done mods like this. One or more people will design it & then the mod is tested every which way. Shopsmith probably did it themselves and then got volunteers to complete the mod in every type of headstock long before they printed the instruction manual. Some might call this beta testing. Well after beta comes what some call the gold standard test where some more mods will be accomplished by people who had no involvement or knowledge of the mod- just like those of us who did the mod and notes/comments are collected and included in the instructions or perhaps n worse cases, they might have to go back to the drawing board and figure out other methods to fix a problem. But the first step is to verify & define the problem using findings actually found. It's the same method any major manufacturer corrects problems with inferior components or design flaws in they want to stay in business.
I haven't used my Power Pro to know enough yet. But I will be replacing an idler shaft which requires I take out the idler shaft because of high speed vibration issue(s) because of bad bearings. I might just turn it on for an hour and let it heat up & when I take it apart, I will use my most used test instruments- my fingers to actually feel the heat sinks. I have a laser temp gauge somewhere & I will first use that & record the temps I find as well. That is in my humble opinion the way to go about it.
I did notice on the belt cover, a silver plate. A tiny fan might just fit in there, but then a power source will be needed to power it. Many of these tiny fans us a small DC voltage- either 5 volts or 12 volts DC to power them. But that is just a thought. I have to finish a renovation upstairs or I will have to find a new spousal unit after 37 1/2 years. She is very tolerant of me and my Shopsmith addiction. Hi, my name is Tony and I am a Shopsmith addict..
One Greenie, Two Mark 7s,Three 510s and much more…
Re: New PowerPro Issues
I have a 510 headstock that had a few broken pork chop pieces. I ordered the parts to fix it, so I'd have it as a spare, then ordered a complete Power pro headstock. I really like it.
Be very careful that you don't try to nudge the headstock by pushing on the Control Panel. It came off in my hand. The 2 screws that hold it in only catch about 3 threads, and you have to take out all of the headstock guts in order to replace the 2 screws. I will definitely be replacing them with longer screws as the plastic posts will accept a longer ones. I ordered a $20 DVD that shows how to take out the motor and everything else that needs to come out in order to get at the screws. There are probably procedures on line which I thought of after calling Shop Smith and ordering the DVD. I don't see a better way to mount the controller but they should have used longer screws... and they are more like wood screws that bite into the plastic posts. Maybe they should have put a threaded insert and used actual screws...
Be very careful that you don't try to nudge the headstock by pushing on the Control Panel. It came off in my hand. The 2 screws that hold it in only catch about 3 threads, and you have to take out all of the headstock guts in order to replace the 2 screws. I will definitely be replacing them with longer screws as the plastic posts will accept a longer ones. I ordered a $20 DVD that shows how to take out the motor and everything else that needs to come out in order to get at the screws. There are probably procedures on line which I thought of after calling Shop Smith and ordering the DVD. I don't see a better way to mount the controller but they should have used longer screws... and they are more like wood screws that bite into the plastic posts. Maybe they should have put a threaded insert and used actual screws...