Shopsmith Forums

dusty wrote:Ed, there is a problem with this discussion every time it comes up. Your figures for what is would cost to replace the Shopsmith shop with stand alones is always way different than my estimates.

There can only be one explanation (maybe two). Your list of equipments that would constitute a suitable setup (in less than 400 sq ft') has got to be way different than mine.

Here is an example of what I think is the likely cause. My first choice for a replacement table saw (what I have always wanted but could not have). Notice how much of your budget has been shot and we cannot even drill a hole.

This is good example of the very issue I tried to get people to think about in my previous post (#19) on this thread.

A year ago I would have said that your ideal replacement buys you a lot more capability in a table saw than a new Shopsmith provides in table saw mode; but if you take into consideration the amount of torque you can get out of the Shopsmith by virtue of its variable speed, the amount of ripping capacity you get with the 520 table system, and the stability of its ProFence, I don't think it is unfair to say that a suitable replacement for the capabilities you would lose by giving up the Shopsmith could only be provided by a big, honkin cabinet saw with a multi-HP motor, a large table extension and an excellent fence system, as opposed to some contractor saw.

Al

dusty wrote:Ed, there is a problem with this discussion every time it comes up. Your figures for what is would cost to replace the Shopsmith shop with stand alones is always way different than my estimates.

There can only be one explanation (maybe two). Your list of equipments that would constitute a suitable setup (in less than 400 sq ft') has got to be way different than mine.

Here is an example of what I think is the likely cause. My first choice for a replacement table saw (what I have always wanted but could not have). Notice how much of your budget has been shot and we cannot even drill a hole.

Dusty
That is because you are comparing a production, professional saw that was made to be used with power feed.
Now take a Delta contractor saw or Ridgid and see how the prices are.

I know many many production cabinet shops that use these machines 8 hours a day every week for 25 years and they are still running fine.

No one needs 5 hp unless you are going to use a power feed and force feed the wood through to increase production.

And why would you only consider a 5hp as a replacement for 1 1/8 horse machine you are now using.

To be fair you need to compare something fairly equal in power and capability.

Ed in Tampa wrote:Dusty
And why would you only consider a 5hp as a replacement for 1 1/8 horse machine you are now using.

To be fair you need to compare something fairly equal in power and capability.

Exactly my point -- you are making the erroneous assumption that a 1 or 1.5HP machine would give you the same performance/capability as a 1 1/8 HP Shopsmith. But your analysis fails to take into account that you can get a lot more torque out of the Shopsmith by turning down the speed (in fact more torque than a 3 HP Unisaw) so that the Shopsmith can do things (has capabilities) that a 1 or 1.5 HP table saw with fixed speed simply can't handle. I have experienced this myself. By turning down the speed on the Shopsmith, I was able to rip a piece of lumber that was bogging down the larger 1.5 contractor saw I had been using even though the larger contractor saw had been well tuned and was sporting a superior blade (a sharp Forrest WWII) versus the Shopsmith combination blade. Until you try the Shopsmith table saw with the speed turned down (to around F, as I recall) you may not realize just how much more torque you can get out of the Shopsmith than other table saws -- even those with larger motors.

[quote="algale"]This is good example of the very issue I tried to get people to think about in my previous post (#19) on this thread.

A year ago I would have said that your ideal replacement buys you a lot more capability in a table saw than a new Shopsmith provides in table saw mode]

Oh come on! There are dozens of saws out there for around $1000 that will surpasss the Shopsmith saw in all specs; torque, speed of feed, fence and width of cut.

No one can seriously expect us to believe you have to go to a profession production shop saw that has a motor sized for power feeders that feed wood at a rate that would make most of dirty our pants if we tried to duplicate it our shop.

Unisaws are called cabinet saws which carries the implication they are made for cabinet or furniture making. They are productions shop tools made at the request of productions shops to handle power feeders and such. Yes many have made their way into home hobbiest shops but come on do you really believe any hobbiest needs 3hp to cut out his daughter's hope chest or to make aunt lezzie's quilt rack?

If we are going to compare saws let us compare saws made for the home hobbiest. Most are known as hybreds and sell for under $1000 by delta, ridgid, general, jet, international tools, grizzly, steel city, Orion, and a few others.

And another factor when you talking stationary machines you can have them cut as wide a board as you want. I have seen delta contractors saws with infeed, outfee, and on either side tables at least 8 foot long. Yes the fence worked on them.

In the past I've owned a Delta contractors saw with a Unifence, and I currently own a 3 HP Unisaw with Unifence and a 510 and a 500 that I bought new in 1980, so I'm familiar with each of them. I don't own a 520, nor have I ever used one. And, while I really like the Shopsmith equipment, it is my least favorite table saw of the bunch. The Shopsmith works fine for a number of operations, but trying to cut miters on a tilting table just isn't my idea of fun.

Ed in Tampa wrote:Oh come on! There are dozens of saws out there for around $1000 that will surpasss the Shopsmith saw in all specs]
I disagree as to torque. Do the math. Or read the thread where it was done. http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthr ... ght=torque and especially this post from that thread: http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showpos ... ostcount=8

Tell me why the math is wrong.

Ed in Tampa wrote: No one can seriously expect us to believe you have to go to a profession production shop saw that has a motor sized for power feeders that feed wood at a rate that would make most of dirty our pants if we tried to duplicate it our shop. .

You are right that you will definitely get a much faster feed rate on the cabinet saw] Yes many have made their way into home hobbiest shops but come on do you really believe any hobbiest needs 3hp to cut out his daughter's hope chest or to make aunt lezzie's quilt rack? .

Possibly. I found I needed the torque of a 3 HP Unisaw to rip a 2 x 4 that had some wild tension in it and which pinched the blade on the contractor saw to a stop. The Shopsmith did it at speed F, which although I did not know it at the time, is exactly the amount of torque as the Unisaw at 3HP and its usual RPM. Again, I refer to this post: http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showpos ... ostcount=8

Al

As a alternative to ripping hard, thick, or difficult tension wood on any table saw, especially those with limited power, one can always use the bandsaw. And, it can be the safest way to rip because kickback isn't a problem. Although the edge isn't a clean at that obtained on the tablesaw, you can fix that with a jointer or use the table saw and take a skim cut on that edge.

algale wrote:I disagree as to torque. Do the math. Or read the thread where it was done. http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthr ... ght=torque and especially this post from that thread: http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showpos ... ostcount=8

Tell me why the math is wrong.Hey I'm as pro Shopsmith as anyone and the math is probably right but because it ignores things that happen in real life like friction and fly wheel effect it does not paint an accurate picture.
I would never said shopsmith is underpower but to try to say it is more powerful than most contractor saws is stretching it.

I have buried ripped ( where the blade is fulled raised but still does not penetrate the wood) oak and walnut 4x4 on a 2hp contractor saws and I know I can not do that on my Shopsmith no matter what speed I select because I have repeatedly tired.


You are right that you will definitely get a much faster feed rate on the cabinet saw]I use my shopsmith almost exclusively for cutting wood but there is no way you can convince me it will out cut a 2hp contractor or hybrid saw. I have used both for far to long and know that it is simply not true. If you really believe that your shopsmith can out power one of them it is pointless to discuss this with you. [/color]


Possibly. I found I needed the torque of a 3 HP Unisaw to rip a 2 x 4 that had some wild tension in it and which pinched the blade on the contractor saw to a stop. The Shopsmith did it at speed F, which although I did not know it at the time, is exactly the amount of torque as the Unisaw at 3HP and its usual RPM. Again, I refer to this post: http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showpos ... ostcount=8

The unisaw was built with cast iron tables and 3 and 5 horse motors so power feeds could be bolted on and saw would not stall. Some of these power feed exert 100 lbs downward pressure along with hundreds of pounds of feed force to jam wood into the machine. If the blade stalls the arbor will bend from the feed force on them. There is no way you can compare the two. I have used these machines all my life and I know what they can do.
Al

My comment is red

pennview wrote:As a alternative to ripping hard, thick, or difficult tension wood on any table saw, especially those with limited power, one can always use the bandsaw. And, it can be the safest way to rip because kickback isn't a problem. Although the edge isn't a clean at that obtained on the tablesaw, you can fix that with a jointer or use the table saw and take a skim cut on that edge.

Excellent point; however, the question is whether you can replace the capability of a Shopsmith in table saw mode with a 1 or 1.5 HP contractor or hybrid table saw and I think the answer is a resounding "No" for the reasons I have already elaborated on. Now, in theory the contractor or hybrid does have the advantage of the convenience of a tilting arbor -- although arbors on those saws can be very inaccurate, causing the blade to heel when tilted which can render them very inaccurate to use at any setting other than 90 degrees and which may cause binding and burning when tilted.

Al, I guess we'll have to disagree on that. I owned a Delta contractors saw with a 1 1/2 horsepower motor before the Unisaw, and never had a problem with it being underpowered or the blade being skewed when tilted. And while I like Shopsmith equipment, the table saw function is just not for me.