revisiting the gfci

[garys]

It just proves the old saying, "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool." Any fool can fool a GFCI, just like "Any fool using his smartphone while driving a smart car will still get into trouble."

[DLB]

jsburger is correct , if you happen to be in a puddle of water and this happens , guess what ,, the GFCI is worthless . When I was in class .. many many years ago , our instructor told us a story about his mentor , he was installing a disposal under a sink, it was his last job .according to him thats where they found his mentor , the situation he got into was the same as above only the circuit was gfci protected with a GFCI breaker and there was water under the sink where he was laying

.

I wasn't going to post in this thread again because I thought we were down to semantics, but here goes. The highlighted part of this means what, exactly? When one is in a puddle of water and comes into contact with power is exactly when the GFCI may, and probably will, operate exactly as designed and remove the source of the shock current. Therefore not worthless. As I interpret the highlighted words, they seem to imply that the GFCI is "worthless" in a wet location. Coincidentally the only area where they are required. Evidently not semantics.

- David

[Hobbyman2]

Thanks David ,

I believe the drawings plainly show how a person can be shocked and even electrocuted on a gfci circuit . I also believe the drawings plainly show how a person will be shocked and possibly electrocuted if the right condition is present . Does a GFCI protect you if you touch the hot wire and the neutral?

--------------------

GFCIs do not protect against all shock. They will not provide protection against phase to phase or hot to ground shocks. If you touch two “hot” wires, a hot and a neutral wire in each hand, or contact an overhead power line, the GFCI is useless. It is also useless if it is broken.Apr 26, 2019

Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) Basics - IBEW Local 292

[Hobbyman2]

Electrical - Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) - OSHAhttps://www.osha.gov › electrical › hazards › grounding
The GFCI will not protect you from line contact hazards (i.e. a person holding two "hot" wires, a hot and a neutral wire in each hand, or contacting an ...

[Hobbyman2]

Electrical - Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) - OSHAhttps://www.osha.gov › electrical › hazards › grounding
The ground-fault circuit interrupter, or GFCI, is a fast-acting circuit breaker designed to shut off electric power in the event of a ground-fault within as ...
Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI)
Worker using electrical saw with ground pin properly grounded to GFCI receptacle
Figure 1. GFCI
View animation of this image.

A ground-fault occurs when there is a break in the low-resistance grounding path from a tool or electrical system. The electrical current may then take an alternative path to the ground through the user, resulting in serious injuries or death. The ground-fault circuit interrupter, or GFCI, is a fast-acting circuit breaker designed to shut off electric power in the event of a ground-fault within as little as 1/40 of a second. It works by comparing the amount of current going to and returning from equipment along the circuit conductors. When the amount going differs from the amount returning by approximately 5 milliamperes, the GFCI interrupts the current.

[Hobbyman2]

Not sure how the OSHA links are describing any one trying to fool the breaker ? or drive while txting and driving ?

[dusty]

Let's try this. One of you that is interested in how GFICs really work take this reading assignment and come back when ready to explain in detail what they say.

https://www.google.com/search?channel=n ... ed+in+GFIC

in case there are further questions, study this:

https://www.google.com/search?channel=n ... ed+in+GFIC

then - give it a rest.

[DLB]

... GFCIs ... will not provide protection against phase to phase or hot to ground shocks. ... Apr 26, 2019

Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) Basics - IBEW Local 292

GFCIs will not provide protection against hot to ground shocks??? Ridiculous. That is exactly what GFCI will provide protection for. I hope you took this out of context.

Electrical - Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) - OSHAhttps://www.osha.gov › electrical › hazards › grounding
... A ground-fault occurs when there is a break in the low-resistance grounding path from a tool or electrical system...

That is an open ground. Result is that there is no longer a safety ground available downstream of the break. My cheap outlet tester will find this, but I've never seen equipment that does real-time evaluation of the integrity of the ground. I guess it is a form of ground fault, but the residential GFCI would not detect it. The description seems to be talking about equipment that uses ground as the primary current return. I can't think of anything in a residential situation that does that. But if it exists, it would not work on a GFCI protected circuit because current must return on neutral.

Seems to me we are in violent agreement that there are ways to get shocked that the GFCI does not protect against. I don't think anyone has contradicted that part of your view anywhere in this thread. You've said a few things I disagree with with, but this ain't one. Safety practice is another, no one here is saying we can ignore basic safety practices because we have GFCI.

Semantics, but discussing ground fault is problematic when we don't have a common definition of 'ground fault.' Now that I understand your definition I can do a little better. Clearly, the GFCI only responds to 'ground faults' in which there is ground current. (Or a neutral to ground short.) For all those things you call ground fault that don't create ground current, I probably agree that the GFCI won't protect in those cases. I only disagree that they should be called ground faults.

There is really no value in introducing these additional sources that say the same thing no one has disputed. Even if they got it right. My question was regarding the one in which you said GFCI was worthless if you are in a puddle of water. None of these additional comments shed any light on that, and only serve to confuse the matter.

My view: I disagree with the IBEW statement and the puddle statement (and a few things that are minor in comparison). GFCIs can and do protect against hot to ground shocks and will protect in wet areas. As designed and intended. Hot to ground shocks in wet areas are the specific hazard they were designed for, though they don't need a wet area to work.

- David

[Hobbyman2]

Thanks David

I agree with you on the protection intentions of the GFCI you are 100% correct , I would be wrong to even think about arguing that , however it only works if everything is registered by the GFCI as a ground fault , this is why the name is a ground fault protection device . a issue that comes to mind is a 2 wire drill with a metallic case from the not so long and distant past with no ground prong , or anything with no ground prong window fan etc , if it shorts out to the case and and you are in a wet location or touching a grounded conductive material you may be reminded pretty quickly there is juice in the wire .

I want to thank you and every one for commenting ,I look forward to more comments , David your answers from the book are pretty much spot on and I am not arguing that point . my personal experience with being shocked in from a GFCI is just that . IMO my experience trumps any book or opinions . I hope this thread can save some one from a shock or worse , Shopsmiths have a metallic case , some folks may have a garage with a wet floor at one time or another .
A GFCI breaker is all ways going to provide more safety than a receptacle but like said it is not a guarantee , your mention of skin resistance does leave me a bit concerned on your understanding of resistance through the body through , or maybe just my understanding of the statement , touching a 9 volt battery on your fingers will result in a different situation than touching one on your tong or eye lid . Case in point , another life observation and of personal experience , a family friend of ours use to raise horses and a cow or two , he had a electric fence around his small pasture, by using his little finger and his index finger on his RIGHT hand he could touch the fence , the current would pass through his hand , he had gathered some immunity because he could hold his hand there for several seconds , he said never use your left hand because current could pass through your heart and stop it from beating if your feet were in water , I was no more than a young teenager helping around the farm, he was a engineer for Tecumseh over 20 years , he all ways told me if I was going to climb over or touch the electric fence or if a animal was tangled up in the fence or it was any kind of a emergency to check it first , this was his way of checking it with out running clear back to the barn, also showed me how he had insulators on every corner of his fence where it could be disconnected . I tried it once ,,, you know ,, just to see ,, I never checked it just to check it again .

[Hobbyman2]

Let's try this. One of you that is interested in how GFICs really work take this reading assignment and come back when ready to explain in detail what they say.

https://www.google.com/search?channel=n ... ed+in+GFIC

in case there are further questions, study this:

https://www.google.com/search?channel=n ... ed+in+GFIC

then - give it a rest.

===============

Thanks Dusty
Dont need to read anything .
I will trust my 40 years of hands on experience .