Shopsmith Forums

It's not wining, most of us appreciate SS because of the quality, and previously for their demonstration folks. They have stopped the demonstrations, both hands on and on line. They still maintain their quality. But their only public face is now their label and their shipping. If a customer receives a sloppy package, they begin to question the quality control and human interest of the employees. In my pharmacy I would never let a label go out with a misspelled word, or lack of punctuation. If the patient saw that I could make such a simple mistake, what other errors might I make?
SS would be wise to seriously consider your criticism.

iclark wrote:you are right - and it is not you.
...the installation instructions are for 555771 and the box does not have any of the 3 model versions marked. same here

...how much of a problem do I have? are the mounting holes in the 2 versions in the same place? Ivan

I'm beginning (!) to think there is no easy solution to the problem of a hybrid table system. (And in mounting the new rails to the Aux tables I discovered yet another defect in them. Another 1/64" with which to contend.)

As you probably know, I have a 510 with a "new style" main table and three different "old style" aux tables (all originals!). I learned (I think) that the kit for the new style was essentially the same for the old style but the old style kit contained at least instructions for drilling out the apron holes to allow for the "newer" stud (or bolt) and nut mounting.
So, since I was assured that I would have to drill out the old Aux table tapped mounting holes anaway, I ordered the "new style" upgrade kit which goes with my new style Main table.

I thought I was in trouble when I got to only the second paragraph in the "Conversion Instructions", wherein I was advised to "save the keps nuts and flat washers for use in attaching the new extrusions to the saw table".
Trouble was subsequently confirmed after the Main table assembly was done and I was told to "Repeat steps 2 thru 6 for your extension tables and floating tables."
You see, there are no keps nuts from the old style ext and float tables to save or reuse.
So, down a potential $20 for 12 nuts and washers from SS, plus shipping, handling, delays and frustration.

But back to your mounting hole position query: the new bolts were the same thread as the old, so I thought why not see if I could simply mount the rails to the Aux tables with the old Torx screws and see how they lined up? And the answer to your question is apparently no. The alignment gauge did not meet the rails.

But then, as my internal temperature was approaching a mild simmer, I noticed the fence floated above the table anyway, so maybe I could mount the Aux table rails w/Torx, and shim the Main table to match them (the larger apron hole in the "new style" Main allows some wiggle room for alignment).

Unfortunately it was at this juncture that I discovered that the new fence didn't lock. No sweat, said I to mineself, I'll just adjust the nuts.
And here I am. Sweat, yes, and at a full rolling boil to boot.

In order to get the fence to actually lock the front nut has to be run in so tight that it chewed my hands up trying to test lock and unlock it, finally resorting to use of a crescent wrench on the handle to undo it.

So I'm sitting here at the boob tube trying to cool off a bit before tackling it again (and letting my blazing red palms fade to normal).

I don't know yet if the holes in the Main will allow me to cheat and adjust it to the Aux jobs. I'm hoping it will.
If they do, maybe that can also help your situation in some way. I'll let you know what happens.
I certainly sympathize with your reticence in re-ordering. There may be an additional delay, but I would worry more about what you would finally get.

I guess I'm not thinking clearly this morning, because I cannot think of a good reason why 12 nuts and washers were not thrown into the upgrade box before it was taped up. I spoke with SS about my mixed system and the situation could not have been made clearer, imho.
But that's a minor thing. A non-locking fence, on the other hand...

keakap wrote:I'm beginning (!) to think there is no easy solution to the problem of a hybrid table system. (And in mounting the new rails to the Aux tables I discovered yet another defect in them. Another 1/64" with which to contend.)

As you probably know, I have a 510 with a "new style" main table and three different "old style" aux tables (all originals!). I learned (I think) that the kit for the new style was essentially the same for the old style but the old style kit contained at least instructions for drilling out the apron holes to allow for the "newer" stud (or bolt) and nut mounting.
So, since I was assured that I would have to drill out the old Aux table tapped mounting holes anaway, I ordered the "new style" upgrade kit which goes with my new style Main table.

I thought I was in trouble when I got to only the second paragraph in the "Conversion Instructions", wherein I was advised to "save the keps nuts and flat washers for use in attaching the new extrusions to the saw table".
Trouble was subsequently confirmed after the Main table assembly was done and I was told to "Repeat steps 2 thru 6 for your extension tables and floating tables."
You see, there are no keps nuts from the old style ext and float tables to save or reuse.
So, down a potential $20 for 12 nuts and washers from SS, plus shipping, handling, delays and frustration.

But back to your mounting hole position query: the new bolts were the same thread as the old, so I thought why not see if I could simply mount the rails to the Aux tables with the old Torx screws and see how they lined up? And the answer to your question is apparently no. The alignment gauge did not meet the rails.

But then, as my internal temperature was approaching a mild simmer, I noticed the fence floated above the table anyway, so maybe I could mount the Aux table rails w/Torx, and shim the Main table to match them (the larger apron hole in the "new style" Main allows some wiggle room for alignment).

Unfortunately it was at this juncture that I discovered that the new fence didn't lock. No sweat, said I to mineself, I'll just adjust the nuts.
And here I am. Sweat, yes, and at a full rolling boil to boot.

In order to get the fence to actually lock the front nut has to be run in so tight that it chewed my hands up trying to test lock and unlock it, finally resorting to use of a crescent wrench on the handle to undo it.

So I'm sitting here at the boob tube trying to cool off a bit before tackling it again (and letting my blazing red palms fade to normal).

I don't know yet if the holes in the Main will allow me to cheat and adjust it to the Aux jobs. I'm hoping it will.
If they do, maybe that can also help your situation in some way. I'll let you know what happens.
I certainly sympathize with your reticence in re-ordering. There may be an additional delay, but I would worry more about what you would finally get.

I guess I'm not thinking clearly this morning, because I cannot think of a good reason why 12 nuts and washers were not thrown into the upgrade box before it was taped up. I spoke with SS about my mixed system and the situation could not have been made clearer, imho.
But that's a minor thing. A non-locking fence, on the other hand...

If all it takes to complete the hardware list so that you can install per the instructions, try a local hardware store. Twelve nuts and washers cannot be a show stopper.

For the benefit of those of us who have never seen this variety of table, maybe you could take some pictures.

I have what I believe is three generations (variations) of tables and the rails fit all of them. This is what has made it difficult for me to fully understand your issue from the very beginning.

The fancy nuts are essentially a hex nut with a built in external tooth lock washer. A flat washer is essentially a flat washer. I agree with Dusty that the hardware store is a good place to get them.

The bolts(I am amazed that you got the "new style" upgrade kit). You of all people(and myself) understand the difference between the two versions.(bolts and washers and fancy nuts AND untapped holes). Also amazed the gals let you get the 'new' version. I AM concerned re your reference to a 1/64" issue remaining! I thought it was related to the 510 round rail tubes only.

Since there is NO price difference between the two versions, IMHO they should be willing to ship you the bolts/washers/nuts for shipping cost only(<$5 priority mail no weight limit box).

P.S. Do you know WHAT size the tapped holes need to be reamed out to? I BELIEVE THEY NEED TO BE LARGER THAN JUST 1/4-20 CLEARANCE TO ALLOW VERTICAL ADJUSTMENT. The size of the holes in the main table should be an accurate indicator. I am assuming the centers of the old/new holes ARE the same location.

The predrilled holes in the tables, through which the 1/4 20 bolts go, are 9/32" holes.

If drilling out the threaded holes in the older style tables would necessarily result in a larger hole (larger than 9/32"), I don't believe that would be a problem (within reason, of course).

The vertical adjustment (of the front/rear rails) is made possible by the slightly oversized holes in the rails.

I have been following this thread about backorders and orders shipped.

I received a back order yesterday that I had completely forgotten I had ordered. It was just an adjustable stop collar. but it did arrive. Don't remember ordering it, but I must have. The shipping document that was in the box shows I also ordered two other item. They are still on back order. So quess they will arrive another day.

I have ordered a lot of items from SS over the last 10 years and must admit I have never had a box that was not packages well and sealed tight. I know how shipping companies handle freight and it is not always a pretty sight.

Maybe I have just been lucky with conditons of boxes when they arrived. Or maybe the FedEx and UPS drivers are just a bit kinder in my area.

Which ever the case may be I am always happy when I receive an order. Just placed an order today for the sandiing package on email special. Already looking ahead to it arriving.

baysidebob wrote: Maybe I have just been lucky with conditons of boxes when they arrived. Or maybe the FedEx and UPS drivers are just a bit kinder in my area. .

You may have something there. We've a long and bad history of FedEx and UPS deliveries here, and I'd thought it had to do with the unusual routing our stuff gets. I rarely (I can think of only one instance) had that kind of trouble with the USPS, but the other two routinely deliver broken, holed, stained and otherwise beaten up parcels, and to top it off the UPS driver has a "thing" for lighted doorbell buttons and will smash with his clipboard every one I replace.

I assure you ALL of the top three delivery companies use automated equipment to sort parcels. The distribution centers are huge, with hundreds or thousands of feet of conveyors.

If you ever got to see one from the catwalks you would be amazed! Trust me I know, it is like a spider web of conveyors, diverters, and slides. Each company moves tons & tons of parcels daily, and parcels are seldom damaged from employee miss handling.

It is a lot of "fun" keeping these systems running.

dusty wrote:If all it takes to complete the hardware list so that you can install per the instructions, try a local hardware store. Twelve nuts and washers cannot be a show stopper.

For the benefit of those of us who have never seen this variety of table, maybe you could take some pictures.

I have what I believe is three generations (variations) of tables and the rails fit all of them. This is what has made it difficult for me to fully understand your issue from the very beginning.

Dusty (and a note for IVAN).

Of course I would trip to the Ace place instead of going with the SS nuts. I was describing what was versus what should have been.
The problem with the tables was more in the old rails as opposed to the new rails sent with my replacement Main table. The problem was the rail tubes, and the problem was a problem whether the rails were on a table or not, which is why shims weren't a viable solution.
(The short form description of my table problems can be put simply: I was sold garbage tables originally.)

Here's another hypothetical example (I'm not being cynical, it really was hard to find and really is hard to picture): say the connector tube was made to very close spec and would just barely fit in the "new style" rail with the thinner walls. Then say you tried to put that connector tube into the "old style" rail with the thicker walled rails-- and remember the outer diameters are the same. It would not fit. You could shim stuff til the cows came home and it still would not fit.
Well in my case the connector tubes just barely fit the old style rails, so when I tightened up to the new style there wasn't enough slop for it to also fit-- in alignment-- the old style.

. (( = new style rail tube wall
. ( ( = old style rail tube wall
{this is when the connector tube locks are still loose}

. (( new style
. ( ( old style
{this is when the connector tube lock is tight, right surfaces aligned. [[EDIT-- right parens should be vertically aligned here]]

now the connector tube aligns with the right surface, BUT
the fence aligns with the Left surface.

BUT I am immensely pleased to report that I no longer have that problem!

And cross your fingers Ivan, because I went ahead and installed the rails with the screws on the "old style" tables, where there is zero tolerance for mis-alignment, and then mounted the rails on the "new style" Main table, to the very top of the adjustment "range" (if one could call it that-- couldn't be more than a couply thou max), and low and be holed everything eventually lined up. So if your tables are as mine, the holes are indeed at the same place in all the style forms.
[I did have to reverse the two floater tables- front to back- which is okay if they are never to be used as Ext tables. One of them has mounting bosses that are of different thickness (but only on one side!) and the other has a front (now rear) apron that was not square to the table top-- it flared in toward the bottom (very stylish, but poor form with critical mechanical alignments). I got the "disturbed" ends at the rear and the (relatively) straight and square ends at the front where the fence needs them.

I was surprised to find that I had to remover the trunions in order to get the middle rail nut off. I had just gone through the table alignments, too.
Oh, well, good practice.

JPG40504 wrote: The bolts(I am amazed that you got the "new style" upgrade kit). You of all people(and myself) understand the difference between the two versions.(bolts and washers and fancy nuts AND untapped holes). Also amazed the gals let you get the 'new' version. I AM concerned re your reference to a 1/64" issue remaining! I thought it was related to the 510 round rail tubes only.

Since there is NO price difference between the two versions, IMHO they should be willing to ship you the bolts/washers/nuts for shipping cost only(<$5 priority mail no weight limit box).

P.S. Do you know WHAT size the tapped holes need to be reamed out to? I BELIEVE THEY NEED TO BE LARGER THAN JUST 1/4-20 CLEARANCE TO ALLOW VERTICAL ADJUSTMENT. The size of the holes in the main table should be an accurate indicator. I am assuming the centers of the old/new holes ARE the same location.

I think your assumption re the relative hole placement is a good one. They are for me (and no that wasn't a freak gust of hurricane force wind that went by a while ago-- it was my sigh of relief!)

Turns out the size of the holes in this new style Main are just barely large enough to accept the bolts-- almost no clearance or leeway for adjustment. I think I know now why the SS lady told me "you may have to bore out the holes in your floater tables". The centers of all the holes are apparently precisely vertically equal.
(SS advised me to get the new version, as opposed to "let me" get it. Worked out.)

I suppose the shipping solution you suppose would likely be what SS would propose should it have become necessary. Those folks have always been 'over backward' fair with me. I'm glad now the nuts n stuff were not sent, as this worked out well.

The rails are now mounted to the two rotated floater tables and the Extension table with the new screws screwed into the un-re-bored aprons, no nuts, and the Main rails with bolts and nuts, of course.

The other 1/64" ? I guess I didn't see it before because of many things, poor lighting, discolored rails and table surfaces, not measuring every possible face, edge, facet, bump and surface to microscopic levels, (frustration, boredom), etc., but the new shiny rails made it stand out like a sore thumb.
On one Aux table (I think it's the one that sags in the middle)the left boss on the front apron stands proud of the edge by 3/128", while the right boss stands out 5/128". With the straight flat rail close to the table edge the misalignment is easily seen, especially next to the other Aux table, and the fence picks it up definitively.
The other Aux table has one apron that is not square to the surface, flared in top to bottom. Stylish perhaps, not functionally useful.
Turns out reversing them both front to back took out almost all of the misalignment at the front rail, enough I think to be not a problem. These Aux tables are twisted, bent, they sag, they're not square or flat and they're inconsistent, but other than that they're fine.
Except for th-- oh, never mind.

But that new glitch shouldn't be a concern to you unless you happened to get some of the same crap tables I got. The old rails should still be good, I would think.

Remind me what parts exactly you want-- I think I erased all my 'old' messages.