Shopsmith Forums

"The original value proposition of the Shopsmith was compact size AND cheaper than all the individual tools if purchased separately. Now it seems to just be more compact. The SPT's are all equal to or more expensive than similar standalone tools, with the Sand Flee Shopsmith had the opportunity to change this but did not."

No, Paul, we did NOT have the opportunity you describe. We haven't seen even the ghost of that opportunity for some time. And the primary reason is that all of the tools to which you allude -- Shopsmith, SPTs, and Sand Flee -- are made in America. The secondary reason is almost as critical -- these are tools designed for a niche in a niche market and we will never be able to sell the volume needed to offset the cost of making them in America. And the tertiary reason is hard-wired to the first two. When all is said and done, we would rather be tool manufacturers than tool importers. Even the name of our in-house magazine and our current foray into electonic publishing describes the way we define our place in this industry: Hands On!

With all good wishes,

greitz wrote:Paul- Shopsmith's Sand Flee's drum is 18" long, the stainless steel top is 23” x 21-1/4”. The Sand Flee's manufacturer does offer a smaller version with a 9" long drum, but you'd have to consult Shopsmith to see if they have plans to adapt the smaller version to SS in the future. Probably depends on how well the big version sells.

Gary

Actually that information helps justify some of the higher price. I don't want a smaller version, I could not dream of justifying the tools Nick lists a competitive they are just too large. I guess I will wait for a sale on the Sand Flee. Now I await delivery of my Ring Master.

............

This has been an interesting posting.

I took several "marketing" classes to gain some understanding of the subject as part of my "real job" back when I was working. I found that engineers don't do well at marketing as their "fluff" stuff in the math goes against our grain. I'm glad I didn't have to do it for a living but I still found it very interesting.

This product (not the shopsmith one) looks like a "classic" case that would be reviewed in class. Of course we will never know what all went in to establishing the price or what the actual cost is for the company but, it would be interesting to talk about, and evaluate.

Things like "made in the usa" has two parts to it. One is how much it costs to be made here in the USA vs somewhere else and second how much does that add to what it is worth in sales. So are they adding some component to the price for being made in the usa in addition to the actual cost?

On something this simple it will be more a matter of how many are to be made then anything else for the mechanical parts. So do you forecast selling 1000 of these a year or 10K. How long do you expect the market to be strong, one year or 3 or 4?? How long before someone comes up with a better "mouse trap" and starts taking away market share?? How long before sales numbers drop because everyone that wanted one has one??

Well this and all other guestions are things we can only guess at. I just hope the marketing people had the right "fluff" in their math. It would be interesting to know just how many of these have sold... and how many of the shopsmith ones sell. No I don't expect anyone to ever tell.

From the posts here the preceived value and the price seem to be off a bit... I wonder how the rest of the woodworking world see this, or hey, even the rest of the readers here???

Ed

reible wrote:"...From the posts here the perceived value and the price seem to be off a bit... I wonder how the rest of the woodworking world see this, or hey, even the rest of the readers here???
Ed

We'll see, Ed, We'll see. Just have to wait a while. Actually, after watching the Sawdust Session "slide show" , I'm getting interested.

Charles,

If you want to get started then make the "sand free", I've actually been using mine on several projects and have been impressed at how well it does work. One of these should sell for $175-$200 given the price points we have seen.

You should be able to put one together in just a couple of hours and enjoy it until you spend the big $$ for the real thing.

Ed

Hi Ed! Glad to have you back at home! No, I certainly have not forgotten about your "Sand Free".

Nick (et al)
I totally agree that a unique, niche tool can bring a premium price for simple engineering, especially if it really hits the bulls-eye and gets a particular job done like nothing else. An example of that in my shop are the Milwaukee close-quarter drills. We paid a high price for them, but 20 yrs ago and they're still trucking - and they do something that no other handheld drill will do. The Kreg 'right angle clamp' is another example. Another example might be something like a multi-router. If you need it, you need it, and nothing else will do the job.

Here's what ticked me off about the Sand-Flee ... In addition to asking $700 for what really should be a $2-250 tool if it were mass-produced... they want another $80 for a chunk of aluminum extrusion they'e calling the "fence". That is highway robbery, and it makes me question their pricing in general. It's no different than heading into a Circuit City and finding a 10' Ethernet patch cable for $40... sitting next to spool of the raw cable that sells for $.25/lf. No matter how you slice it, you can't justify a markup of 5000% (or whatever - pardon my bad math...)

Moo.

Also - I realize this is an old thread, but it is truly almost impossible to find USA-manufactured stuff anymore... and that's because American consumers want $200 dishwashers and whatever else. I'm a travelling consultant and I often meet with businesspeople struggling with that battle -- do we sell to Wal-Mart on their terms and survive.... or do we stick to our guns and fade into niche oblivion. In upstate NY, I had a client who had to shut down all domestic operations because Wal-Mart demanded a $.10 (dime) reduction in the wholesale cost of a storage bin. 4000 people lost their jobs state-side, just so Wal-mart could sell this item for $9.99 instead of $10.09 (or whatever). It was ridiculous, but that's the hardball they play. Sam Walton has to be churning in his grave - his mantra was 'buy USA', but now his chain is the reason for our ridiculous trade imbalance with China.

The real problem - none of these offshore outsourced 'competitors' pay anywhere near a US minimum wage. In Mexico, $1.00/hr is typical for a factory worker, and $1.40/hr. for a "supervisor". It's not like the cost of living there is 10x less than the USA... in fact, on the border towns like Juarrez (sp) - the people come across into the US to shop at the El Paso Wal-Mart because it's cheaper. Is it any wonder there are border problems when you have 15-20M people trying to live on $50/week ? What we've done is created a new slave trade. Sure - maybe you can argue "it's better than they had" - and it probably is... but what if, instead of a buck an hour... our federal government required all US-based manufacturers to pay at least OUR minimum wage in those countries. THEN we'd be lifting up the entire world, we'd be making it less attractive to send entire industries offshore, and we'd still have reasonably priced consumer goods (although maybe a few pennies more than today). THAT would be the right thing to do.

Meanwhile - everyone is shocked that the latest Bosch compound miter saw is an innacurate piece of junk, not worthy of the brand. But look where it's manufactured... NOT Germany , NOT the USA..... China. Probably because Home Depot refused to sell it for the $900 it should cost.... has to be $699 or less or they won't give it shelf space.

Or.. what about all the great lawn care brands ? John Deer, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, etc etc.... now the only thing that differentiates any of their consumer-priced goods is the paint. They're all made offshore by MTD, and they're all throw-away quality. How else can you retail something for 1/4 today of what it cost in real dollars 20 yrs ago ?

I hope ShopSmith can continue building in the USA with USA labor - but it won't be able to and compete on price. Best wishes though - you're doing the right thing.

Thanks for letting me rant.
Moo

Hey moo;

Have you purchased the connectors that go on the ends of that relatively cheap ethernet cable? And do you have the tools required to complete that assembly process?

When you're get done building your own, will they be tug proof and water proof?

I don't want to get accused of justifying all of the high prices that we pay these days but the markup is NOT limited to items like the cost of wire from $.25/ft to $40/cable!

Somebody is going to pay for all of that fuel that is being marked up to satisfy the greed of the speculators!!! Study the futures market for a while and then you'll really be ticked. You and I are being screwed big time and haven't really realized it yet. And can't do anything about it when we do.