Shopsmith Forums

Hi sonny,

I hope that I can answer your question to your satisfaction:

sonny wrote:.............I was in my local Lowes store this week and asked the employee there if they still sold SS, to which he replied "SS?". After I explained to him what it was, he said that they used to but they were all taken out, but that they could order parts for them. When I asked if he had any brochures on prices, he replied that they did not.

Is this enough to make SS have a presence in Va?.............

I do not know Virginia law; however, in Washington, if their product is being sold in retail stores (even a special order for non-stocked items), they have a presence.

Ed in Tampa wrote:..............I think since they no longer have a direct sales presence in the eastern states they don't need to collect sales tax anymore. It would be a win win situation for us the customers and Shopsmith.
Ed

Hi Ed,
Even though ShopSmith might not be obligated to do that tax work, in the State of Washington, what you propose is illegal, i.e., even if ShopSmith did not collect, report and pay the sales tax, I am obligated to report, and pay a "use tax" on any purchase that I made that I was not charged sales tax on. I can not imagine that Florida does things much differently.

a1gutterman wrote:Hi Ed,
Even though ShopSmith might not be obligated to do that tax work, in the State of Washington, what you propose is illegal, i.e., even if ShopSmith did not collect, report and pay the sales tax, I am obligated to report, and pay a "use tax" on any purchase that I made that I was not charged sales tax on. I can not imagine that Florida does things much differently.

Tim
I don't think it illegal yet. I know in Florida and in many other states the taxation of mail order/internet commerce is being discussed.
I think in most (probably not all) states sales tax is only collected if the seller has a presence in that state. What constitute a presence is defined by each state, in some just a demo, in others a store.

There have been long and lenghty debates on this subject in other forums and as far as I know sales tax collection on mail order/internet commerce is a state issue. If you buy from some internet sellers they will list the states that require them to pay tax sales tax if you live or have the product shipped to that state. Others simply do not charge sales tax ( I would guess illegally in some cases) as there is no real way to enforce the law.

Years and years ago I asked Shopsmith why they collected sales tax on my mail order purchases when other mail order companies did not. I was told because SS had what was constituted a presence in each of the states (demos, TA, and in some cases stores). That has changed at least for us in the East where there are no longer any Demo's, TA's or stores. Therefore I was wondering if Shopsmith could drop collecting Sales Tax.

I know the Florida legislature is discussing internet and mail order sales and trying to figure out what law to put in place and how to enforce it if they do.
However until they do make such a law I don't think there is any legal requirement for mail order or internet companies to pay sales tax unless they have a "presence" in the state.
Ed

The last time Shopsmith had a physical presence in NJ that I am aware of was in 2005. I do recall a Shopsmith store near Philadelphia years ago. But it closed.

A month or so ago, I thought there had been a mistake on an invoice when I noted that sales tax was charged. So I called and was told because of Shopsmith's physical presence in NJs, they were required to pay sales tax.
But where ieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwdssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

*nudges backhertz*

psst... I think you fell asleep on your keyboard...

Hi Ed,

Ed in Tampa wrote:................. as there is no real way to enforce the law.

This is very true, exactly what I have stated earlier.

Ed in Tampa wrote:...........I know the Florida legislature is discussing internet and mail order sales and trying to figure out what law to put in place and how to enforce it if they do..............

They can pass all the "state" laws that they want to: If a business is "outside" of the tax district, it does not have to comply.

Ed in Tampa wrote:.........However until they do make such a law I don't think there is any legal requirement for mail order or internet companies to pay sales tax unless they have a "presence" in the state.
Ed

It does not matter how many laws are passed, or what the laws passed say: The laws of one state do not apply to any person or business that is not within it's jurisdiction, and that jurisdiction ends at it's borders. The only way that any state will be able to collect sales tax on sales made to their citizens from out-of-state companies that do not have a presence in their state, is to develop an intrastate customs inspection at all entries to it's borders. That way they can inspect the cargo of all haulers of freight*, including private vehicles, and determine if sales tax has been paid. I do not see that happening, as I beleive that it wood be more expensive to do that, then lose out on collecting the sales tax that they are checking for.

In my state of Washington, none of that rationalization removes the fact that the purchaser is responsible for paying A tax, whether they pay it at the point of sale as Sales Tax, or they pay it after they receive the item as Use Tax. In my state, what you propose (to avoid paying ANY tax on your purchase), is illegal. It is, of course, done all the time.

*This, of course, would not apply to the US Mail, as the Feds wood not allow it]

You know I can't help but think how many more sales Shopsmith would have when free shipping is offered plus not collecting sales tax. It just like fishing: all it takes is the right bait.

BPR

It would be nice if, once a month, Shopsmith sent out a free shipping offer to those registered on its email list. This would allow folks to "flush out" their list of little nice-to-have's, and would probably end up with a nice constant revenue stream into Shopsmith.

No PA sales tax would be a big plus too. They have no presence here.

The combination of both would be very good for Shopsmith, and very bad for my credit card.

- Chris

I cannot remember if it was an attorney or a government [font='Verdana','sans-serif']Bureaucrat[/font] who during a party explained to me that if I purchase a product from an out of state vendor, I have created a presense for that vendor in my state. Once that occurs they or I owe sales tax. In that it is easier to collect sales tax from the party with more to lose, better said with deeper pockets, the seller gets to pay the taxes. Which means you or I as the end user has that pleasure passed along to us. I for one don't care for the thought of a the sales tax police showing up at my door and auditing my records in order to collect taxes. I care even less for the penalties that could be charged for taxes not paid on a timely basis. Thank you shopsmith for collecting the taxes and saving me from being visited by the tax police. Jim

Me too, Jim!
Thank you Shopsmith for collecting the taxes and saving me from being visited by the tax police.