SS jionter vs other brands

putttn · Post by **putttn** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:39 pm

This is a great thread for me. I'm learning a lot just reading different opinions. If I thought I had enough experience and knew what I was going to be making I might look at the SS planer or a Williams & Hussey or even the Hawk because they're not that much more than the SS. $1,800 for the W&H & about the same for the Hawk. All three are quality built and will last a lifetime. Real pride of ownership with all three. I'm finding that more than half the fun of woodworking may be the operation of these machines, for some people. I may be one of those. I don't even own a nail gun yet! So, I am thinking the money difference could be spent acquiring whatever I may need to start my carpentry/woodworking hobby that I don't have now or maybe just the fun of owning such a precision machine of the W&H, Hawk or SS would be the real fun. You guys have been down that road--what do you find, working with precision machinery or machinery that just gets the job done and doesn't break the bank?

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:13 am

berry wrote:What a great thread.

I have the SS jointer and the Delta 'lunch box' planner. I'm a hobbyist working on new kitchen cabinets. I have lots of rough cherry in 8" to 11" widths. Certainly I could rip them down to 3" and surface plane them on the SS but that seems crazy. And I could hand plane them, to get a flat face, but I'm hoping to finish the project before Social Security goes bankrupt.

On Wood Magazines forum Top Tool Tips there was a very interesting post about a planer sled. I wondered if anyone here has built one and if so how effective are they. Or if you've read about one in some book or magazine. I know I'll make one as soon as I can get stock out of the garage.

It sure brings a smile to my lips when I read about "small" 20 x 20 shop size, mine is 12 x 14, and I'll wager there a several out there who have smaller shops than I.

First I would run the wood through my planner and examine the results. I have planed a lot of wood flat, it all depends on how it is twisted and how much the planer flattens it with the pressure rolls.

Hand planing a cup or a twist from a board is not that big of a job. With a sharp plan I can usually get the wood close enough that the planer will finish it.

Also cutting it down to size doesn't have to mean everything to 3 inch wide. Most rail and stile construction is narrower than 3 inches. And riaised panels usually need to be glued up anyhow.

No I haven't used the sled but like I said run the wood through the planner at least once and see what you really have to work through.
Ed

ericolson · Post by **ericolson** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:51 am

Dusty;

I enjoy hanging out on http://www.owwm.com (known as the mothership) and .org (the forum) (info for those that may want to check it out). There are always good threads going and some really great photos posted. For those that don't know, owwm is basically a large (and growing) group of woodworkers dedicated to preserving American made woodworking machinery from the beginning of industrialization (1880's or so) to present. They classify a machine as OWWM so long as it's at least 20 years old and made in the USA. Some of the restorations these guys undertake are amazing, taking rusty junk that's had a tree growing through it and completely rebuilding it: machining new parts as necessary, busting rust, new paint, etc. until the machine looks like it just came out of the factory! There are only a few photos of Shopsmiths, predominately 10ERs, a few MK V's, maybe a Sawsmith. I've posted a couple of photos of my vintage table saw and bandsaw, but haven't yet posted any photos of my '62 Goldie SS. We need to get photos of our Greenies, Goldies, 10ERs, MK VII's, etc. on the site. There's an additional plus to think about : my insurance guy told me that posting photos of my machinery to the site is acceptable record of my property in the event my shop burns down or gets relocated to another state by a tornado. I've only got two truly new machines: a Rigid contractor's saw and a little bitty Ryobi belt/disc sander. Everything else is vintage machinery.

Now, puttn, my answer to your question (You guys have been down that road--what do you find, working with precision machinery or machinery that just gets the job done and doesn't break the bank?) I like machinery that gets the job done. With a little (or a lot, depending on the situation) effort, virtually any machine can be made to be extremely accurate. However, the higher quality machinery (and more expensive) are a lot easier to adjust for accuracy than your cheaply made items. In essence: you get what you pay for. I've learned quite a bit about making machines accurate working on and tweaking the vintage stuff I own. Adjusting my SS is about as easy as it gets. If I remember correctly, I brought home my SS about five years ago, adjusted everything according to the manuals, and haven't made an adjustment since. Maybe a tweak here or there, but overall nothing major. Mind you, in that time I've loaded everything into a trailer, hauled it cross-country, moved into storage, moved it out of storage, loaded it into a truck, moved into a shop, etc. And with all of the banging and knocking about that my SS received (including a big dent in the top of the headstock), I haven't had to do any major tune-ups since my initial adjustments were made. That really says something about quality machinery.
I have, over the years, gravitated towards vintage machinery because you CANNOT get that kind of quality today unless you can afford to pay thousands of dollars for it, and then you're still getting something made out of thin sheet metal. I did a cost comparison a few months ago between what I have spent and what it would cost me new. For what I've paid for used industrial grade machinery, and I include my SS in this category because of it's longevity, I could've outfitted my shop with modern "contractor" grade machinery which definitely wouldn't have been able to stand up to the use my machinery sees. Mind you, I'm not in the shop every day (wish I was, though), but when I am, I'm WORKING, and my machinery is working!
My recommendation is to do what we all have done when we started out: buy the best you can afford (and afford to not make your better half angry:) ). You'll be a lot happier in the long run. A cheaply (is that a word?) made machine can easily ruin your project, your day, and your attitude about woodworking.
And, as time goes by and your experience and enthusiasm grow, you can always upgrade. And, most of all, you can't go wrong with Shopsmith. As I've stated before: even with all of the machinery I've got, I WILL NOT part with my SS. It's simply too good of a machine.

putttn · Post by **putttn** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:00 pm

Since I bought my 1995 SS 510 a couple of weeks ago, I've been checking it out and getting familar. It's in such "new" condition, all I've had to do is vacuum a little sawdust off the table top and opened it up to see if belt was ok, still looks new in there and no dust or anything. What's been fun is to work on such a nice piece of machinery and everything "fits". Don't know if I'll ever use it but it's sure fun to work on. Finally started it up this past weekend and it seems to run fine. Guess the best way is to just start some of my projects using the SS and see what I'll need as the project goes along. Then decision time.

curly57 · Post by **curly57** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:44 pm

Eric, I guess I'll have to put my old cast iron 500 table back on mine and send in some pics of my greenie , I believe it was made in the 50's, the serial # is one thats not listed on there years made.

ericolson · Post by **ericolson** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:13 pm

putttn wrote:Since I bought my 1995 SS 510 a couple of weeks ago, I've been checking it out and getting familar. It's in such "new" condition, all I've had to do is vacuum a little sawdust off the table top and opened it up to see if belt was ok, still looks new in there and no dust or anything. What's been fun is to work on such a nice piece of machinery and everything "fits". Don't know if I'll ever use it but it's sure fun to work on. Finally started it up this past weekend and it seems to run fine. Guess the best way is to just start some of my projects using the SS and see what I'll need as the project goes along. Then decision time.

Be careful!!:) Once you get started it's hard to stop! Especially when the spouse sees what you're up to and gives you the "I want this" list or hands you photos of something she cut out of a magazine. And if things on a project just don't seem to be coming out correctly, that's the best way to learn!

charlese · Post by **charlese** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:56 pm

[quote="ericolson"]Dusty]

I am amused by the claims of some machinery "experts" that quote settings and tolerances to a thousand of an inch. There is a Sweedish made machine, can't recall the name, has three motors all 3hp - has a built in sliding table, a moulder, a jointer and of course a saw. Sells for $10,000 and more. My son's working compadre bought one. When someone had the guts to ask what are your projects - The answer was "my shop is the project".

Saw blade manufactures also give me a kick when the tune the blades and make little slots in them to prevent vibration.

I have had good luck with SS carbide saw blades. I use mostly red oak. My shop is running about 250 days per year. After 10 years, I got a second 1/8" carbide blade from SS. Just bought the three 3/32" (thin blade) set with arbors because I was curious. They also work fine. Had to switch back to the 1/8" blade for making 6 light doors for a corner cabinet. Found there is not very much difference in the pull on the motor between 1/8" and the thin ones. There is also no difference in the quality of cut. Both are pretty precise for ripping and crosscutting.

Now to what I wanted to say; If your machine can make cuts that are within 1/32" - what more would you want? The SS sure can!! Fitting pieces together usually requires some "fitting". 1/64" is not too much to trim.

Why do so many tout the accuracy of their machines, when it is all with the operator anyway?

putttn · Post by **putttn** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:02 pm

Eric, she's seen some of my projects so now that I have the SS maybe she will have more faith in what it might look like. All the tool I own are pretty sparse and old. They still work so that one good thing and I'm learning from this site so hopefully I'll get going with some projects after I attend the school next week. Really confusing as to what equipment to buy and the SS joiner and planer look like they's be near the first on the list. Either that or the DeWalt from what everyone has said so far on this thread.

charlese · Post by **charlese** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:11 pm

This post is really just for fun. I think not many folks have the need for such a piece of equipment but if you want a look - here it is.
http://usa.felder-gruppe.at/?page=masch ... 69#tblHead

Sorry for my earlier mistake. The three motors on this machine are 4 hp ea. not 3 as I said in my earlier post. If anyone has a need for a jointer table of 1640 mm length (64.5 ") - here it is! Base price $15,795 (+any price increases)

For those who want the High Quality that money can buy this may be for you!

I wonder if the furniture turned out on this machine looks any better than the stuff comming off of My SS510. Doubt it!

putttn · Post by **putttn** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:08 am

Charlese, now that's what I'm talking about! Some of you guys probably have a whole lot more $$ in your shop than what that machine costs. I can emphathize with that one fella who says his shop is his project. I can tell from SS owners that there is certainly a pride of ownership. That may be half the fun of owning some of these expensive macines that are so well built. It seems if you look at what's been stated here there are two factions, one who is just interested in getting the most out of their dollar to get the job done and those who enjoy the pride of ownership in owning a precision machine. Getting back to the theme of this thread it seems you can certainly buy other brands that will get the job done but the SS group throws in pride of ownership that probably doesn't exist with other less expensive machines. Does DeWalt have a forum like this?