Hand Shake Agreement - and Honor

[Gene Howe]

And, woodworkers are often "out of the box" thinkers and multitaskers.
We really can have a wide ranging discussion about honesty AND the merits of dovetails on the same forum.

Forum
"This is a section for general discussions NOT related to woodworking."
Bill V

[JPG]

Yeah, and I let myself get sucked in again. But no more.

Promises, promises!:D

[heathicus]

I do not understand why you think people with different life experience should have differing 'opinions'. If their 'opinion' is based upon 'facts' then their 'experience' is irrelevant.

Now if their 'opinion' is based upon hearsay or some other nebulous thing gleened from their 'experience', than randomness is to be expected.

Sadly too many are in the latter category!

Actually, I would agree with db5 on that. Differences of opinion, while using the exact same "facts", often comes down to a difference in values. Maybe that's a nebulous thing gleaned from experience, but I don't think it should be completely discounted.

I think it should be understood that two reasonable people with equally reasonable minds can review the same facts and yet come to completely different opinions. As long as that's understood, debates can remain civil and respectful.

I subscribe to the Thomas Jefferson view - "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." For me, I value liberty so highly that it is worth the bad things that happen because we have that liberty. Many other people don't share that value of liberty. For them, safety and security or following a religious edict is worth more than the liberty it costs to be safe, secure, religiously compliant. So an equal review of the same facts by two people can lead to wildly differing conclusions on topics like gun control, healthcare, the environment, etc.

And I think "experience" can greatly shape the value someone places on liberty vs security.

Even if we honestly evaluate all the "facts" on a topic, we still use our values to shape our opinions on how to react in light of those facts.

[Gene Howe]

Well said, Heath. Very well said.

[Ed in Tampa]

I work with juvenile offenders, some of whom do not appear to have been blessed with a conscience. It is scary to think of them as adults with adult responsibilities. I try to help them and I make a lot of mistakes. I get sidetracked and become forgetful, which causes its own set of problems. But I think they know my heart is with them, but some of them couldn't care less. Those are the sad ones.

As for the health care law, my struggling neighbor now has health insurance for the first time in decades. I'm glad our crazy government was able to pass something in the way of health care reform, but making insurance companies the centerpiece of it would not have been my first choice.

I won't touch the health care issue. The jury is still out. I have heard both horror stories and ones like yours. We will see.

I am also fully aware we can not legislate morality. Although we try.

I would like to address your comment that some youth offenders do not seem to have a conscience. I guess that is possible, but my opinion is they have never been made to endure the consequences of their decisions.

My daughter is a middle school principal. When she has to call in the parents invariably the first words out of their mouth is "lawyer" or "suing".
Often even when faced with video recordings of their child in the "act" they deny it, excuse it, dismiss it.

They then try to throw their position, money or fame around to make the problem go away. If that fails they try to resort to my daughters sympathy by literally crying and begging. Often grown men with impressive credentials resort to this.

If all else fails they often appeal to the school board and those with enough money may even prevail.

This is middle school 11-14 year old's in a fairly affluent neighborhood. She has had to deal with firearms, drugs, sexual act (including intercourse), thief, lying, cheating, bullying, extortion, blackmailing, assault on students and or teachers and etc.

In almost every situation the child walks out of the situation with a smirk on their face unless the conduct justifies law enforcement action. Which everyone resists not wanting to have a 12 year old with a rap sheet (which goes away when they reach 18 or 21). But it does take the smirk from their face at least until they learn the law has nothing more than a slap on the wrist for them.

I say all of this to say in almost all of these cases the child themselves never have to bear the consequences of their action. So what they learn is their actions do not carry any consequence. And even if their action is so wrong that law enforcement must be involved they still don't have to bear the full weight of the their actions.

[steve4447]

I am really curious, Steve. In what part of this great country did you grow up and where do you now call home?

FFIW and because I asked you....I was born and raised in Montana, I grew up in the military and I now live near an Indian reservation in Arizona. I lived for 6 years in Biloxi, MS in the 60s and a few years in CA, OH, IA and WA. What I am trying to say is that I have experienced first hand much of what makes this country tick.

How about you? Are you registered to vote?

I do agree that the children in this country are in need of some improved up bringing. Where are they to get that? Hmmm, from their parents??? from their schools??? from their house of worship??? from those they see and meet on the streets??? from their Government????

A bunch of this is rhetoric and I do not expect a response. Just stop and think what you might say if you were inclined to say anything.

Lets see if I can answer some of those questions?

I1. I currently live in The very rural panhandle of Florida...An I have Considered Florida home since 1958...but I was not born hers..nor did I spend all of my time here as a grown man...But rather traveled a lot...

2. Yes I am registered to vote and I am politically active and in frequent contact with my representatives...

3. As yet I have seen no perfect Social System but I am impressed by some of the aspects of some of the Scandinavian concepts...for instances...It seem that Iceland put the bankers in jail and bailed out the homeowners and investors....And I believe the other Scandinavian countries actually have shrinking Prison populations while ours are constantly expanding...Along with the expanding costs...

Much of our system seems to me to be Alice in wonderland ...through the looking glass ..Upside down and backwards...Individuals incarcerated buy a court of Law with Due Process and arguably the worst members of our society are the only people guaranteed ..What are proclaimed to be and so decreed by the Courts ...Basic Human Rights....Including but not limited to ...Food ...Shelter...Medical Care and access to Mental Health Care...including Prescription Drugs and unlimited Hospital Care...

Yet it is unreasonable for ordinary citizens...The ones who who have worked and payed taxed and contributed to our society for their entire lives to to expect those very same proclaimed Basic Human Rights???

You can't have it both ways!...Either they are Rights or they are Not...I can expand on this but I am trying to be brief.

[JPG]

Actually, I would agree with db5 on that. Differences of opinion, while using the exact same "facts", often comes down to a difference in values. Maybe that's a nebulous thing gleaned from experience, but I don't think it should be completely discounted.

I think it should be understood that two reasonable people with equally reasonable minds can review the same facts and yet come to completely different opinions. As long as that's understood, debates can remain civil and respectful.

I subscribe to the Thomas Jefferson view - "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." For me, I value liberty so highly that it is worth the bad things that happen because we have that liberty. Many other people don't share that value of liberty. For them, safety and security or following a religious edict is worth more than the liberty it costs to be safe, secure, religiously compliant. So an equal review of the same facts by two people can lead to wildly differing conclusions on topics like gun control, healthcare, the environment, etc.

And I think "experience" can greatly shape the value someone places on liberty vs security.

Even if we honestly evaluate all the "facts" on a topic, we still use our values to shape our opinions on how to react in light of those facts.

So 'facts' alone do not an opinion make.

Interpretation and value 'judgements' cause off course opinions.

Guess that is why they are called 'opinions'.

Not worth the time of day.

Guess we need to use reasons, not opinions.

Knot perfect, but closer!;)


That last sentence is for dgale's benefit!:D

[heathicus]

...What are proclaimed to be and so decreed by the Courts ...Basic Human Rights....Including but not limited to ...Food ...Shelter...Medical Care and access to Mental Health Care...including Prescription Drugs and unlimited Hospital Care...

Yet it is unreasonable for ordinary citizens...The ones who who have worked and payed taxed and contributed to our society for their entire lives to to expect those very same proclaimed Basic Human Rights???

You can't have it both ways!...Either they are Rights or they are Not...I can expand on this but I am trying to be brief.

Food, shelter, medical care (including mental health)... Those are not rights. Those are perks of a society. A right is something that comes from the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." Rights don't come from men or governments or the institutions that come from men and governments.

You have a right to your life. Your life belongs to you and you alone. Your life wasn't given to you by a government or a society, but by nature and "Nature's God." You have the right to defend your left when it is threatened. Or you can give it willingly for a cause. But it is your life to defend and give away.

You have a right to your liberty. Your liberty might have been protected by a government but it wasn't given to you by a government or a society. Your liberty to live and use your life as you see fit belongs to you and you alone. You have the right to exchange your liberty for food, shelter, medical care, a living wage, a retirement plan, etc. You do not have the right to exchange MY liberty for food, shelter, medical care, etc.

You have the right to obtain your own food and shelter and medical care through whatever means you desire and are available to you - as long as your method doesn't impede on the rights of others. You do not have a "right" to be given food by someone else or have a shelter supplied for you.

You do not have a right to healthcare that you can not produce yourself. You do not have the right to make me pay for a portion of your healthcare. I do not have the right to make you pay for a portion of my healthcare. You do not have the right to make a doctor treat you against their will. You and I both have the right to voluntarily contribute to a risk management system to make health care less expensive (insurance). But outside of doctoring yourself, you do not have a right to healthcare because that impedes on the rights of others.

You have a right to take care of yourself. You do not have a right to make me help you take care of both of us.

The 2nd Amendment says I have the right to own a gun. But I do not have that right to make you help pay for my gun. The same goes for food, shelter, healthcare, education... you name it.

[dgale]

Forum
"This is a section for general discussions NOT related to woodworking."
Bill V

I think you missed my point - I personally have no clue what the original intent of this thread is or where this ever tangential discussion is heading but sure, discuss away and this is the appropriate forum to do so. I just see multiple extremely long-winded and very passionate posts here and think to myself how nice it would be if a fraction of that energy and enthusiasm was used on this site to discuss Shopsmiths and woodworking. I (and I assume most folks here) joined this site to presumably discuss these two topics but more and more this site seems to put its energy into political venting and other off-topic discussions. No problem for me, I just ignore them, as I'm bombarded enough in life with that stuff and woodworking is a pleasant escape from the realities and unpleasantreis of life...but everyday I log on thinking there might be some new and interesting discussions on folks' latest projects, restorations, acquisitions, questions about techniques etc. and to some degree there is this sort of discussion regularly cropping up but it seems like the % of on-topic vs off-topic (and typically of a political or contentious nature) discussion is heading more and more toward the latter. I think back just a few years ago to the great thread about what folks were making for X-Mas presents and I was amazed by the quantity and volume of output by a large # of members...perhaps I overlooked it but I don't even remember such a discussion this past holiday season, or if it did occur, it was a small fraction of what was displayed and discussed the previous year.

[steve4447]

Food, shelter, medical care (including mental health)... Those are not rights. Those are perks of a society. A right is something that comes from the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." Rights don't come from men or governments or the institutions that come from men and governments.

You have a right to your life. Your life belongs to you and you alone. Your life wasn't given to you by a government or a society, but by nature and "Nature's God." You have the right to defend your left when it is threatened. Or you can give it willingly for a cause. But it is your life to defend and give away.

You have a right to your liberty. Your liberty might have been protected by a government but it wasn't given to you by a government or a society. Your liberty to live and use your life as you see fit belongs to you and you alone. You have the right to exchange your liberty for food, shelter, medical care, a living wage, a retirement plan, etc. You do not have the right to exchange MY liberty for food, shelter, medical care, etc.

You have the right to obtain your own food and shelter and medical care through whatever means you desire and are available to you - as long as your method doesn't impede on the rights of others. You do not have a "right" to be given food by someone else or have a shelter supplied for you.

You do not have a right to healthcare that you can not produce yourself. You do not have the right to make me pay for a portion of your healthcare. I do not have the right to make you pay for a portion of my healthcare. You do not have the right to make a doctor treat you against their will. You and I both have the right to voluntarily contribute to a risk management system to make health care less expensive (insurance). But outside of doctoring yourself, you do not have a right to healthcare because that impedes on the rights of others.

You have a right to take care of yourself. You do not have a right to make me help you take care of both of us.

The 2nd Amendment says I have the right to own a gun. But I do not have that right to make you help pay for my gun. The same goes for food, shelter, healthcare, education... you name it.

You are entitled to your opinion but the Court Has Said what the Court Has Said..

A very good quote that i will always remember from the lecturer in one of my classes I will try to paraphrase...

The Law doesn't mean what you think it means...

The Law doesn't mean what i say it does...

The Law means what a Court has Interpreted It to Mean...

In the example that I am referring to ....The Court has ruled that Inmates have Basic Human Rights...And has made many rulings concerning this... all of them to the best of my knowledge in the favor of the Inmates....Including that they can not be made to work for any of the things defined as these Rights....And that Food Cannot Be Used as A Reward Or Punishment...

I am not an attorney and don't pretend to be...But I am aware that any Necessity of Life... is defined as ...A Basic Human Right...And Inmates have won huge awards in these cases...But don't take my word for it...do your own research...