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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:01 pm
by algale
JPG40504 wrote:You do not realize it, but you answered your own question.
You cited the Ryobi back tracking because of peer pressure.
You cited the PTI collectively petitioning riving knives.
Both those actions differ from Gass's petition in the following 'details'.
Gas is in it for himself(and associates).
PTI realized that unless the entire industry adopted riving knives that those that did would be at a competitive disadvantage. Hence the petition so as to level the field. The PTI members reached a consensus that riving knives were a practical entity. A failing(???) riving knife will not halt production for an extended period.
Similarly PTI realizes that the saw stop 'feature' is no where near as practical($$$)(= catastrophic inability to continue production with a 'tripped' machine). We are a 'hobby market', but commercial enterprises are hurt financially when a production machine 'goes down'. Bottom line they do not want to be connected to a debacle that I believe saw stop would become.(sorta like every other version of windows that has intolerable 'issues'). I do not think that action was entirely self centered. I think they see the added cost as an undesirable fact. The reliability is unknown. The consequences too severe.
That is the way I see a small difference. Small but 'more correct' IMHO.
I agree Gass is in this for his own benefit, but do you really believe PTI isn't? Regardless of motives, why is it any less an attack on the free market than what Gass has done when PTI decides riving knives are good for us and that they must all band together to make sure everyone offers one because, otherwise, anyone who offers may be put at competitive disadvantage? That would seem like an argument Gass should be making! Allowing even a majority of an industry to write the regulations that all must then abide is hardly better (or worse) than allowing one industry member to request a regulation governing the whole industry.
You may or may not be right about the reasons PTI decided to not pursue SawStop. But if they thought it would be a debacle, why did they get to the point of negotiating about licensing fees before they decided not to go forward? That suggest is was about how much money Gass would get.
Prodution so, production shops are switching to SawStop
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:03 pm
by algale
[quote="judaspre1982"]There is a saying that goes]
So if you oppose things being rammed down your throat, do you agree with me that PTI getting riving knives and blade guards jammed down our throats is as bad as what Gass is doing?
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:07 pm
by algale
dusty wrote:But it is NOT IRRELEVANT! It might be to the professional craftsman but it is not to the amateur hobbyist. I consider myself pretty average for this discussion and I cannot afford $3000 for a table saw. I couldn't afford my Mark V except I bought it when it was less than $1200 w/bandsaw and evem then I bought it on sale.
NO, IT IS NOT IRRELEVANT but price is not what makes me feel as I do about Gass. It is his attempt to create that MANDATE for his own financial good while attempting to cloak it in what is good for mankind's safety.
If it is so damn good - just put it on the market and let the free market place determine his future (WITHOUT GOVERNMENT MANDATES).
One Other Point/Question: My Mark V has had a riving knife "FOREVER". When is it that PTI allegedly forced a riving knife into my life?
OKAY I have said about all that I intend to say about the SawStop until this entire fiasco comes to a conclusion.
No need to yell, this is a polite conversation. I didn't say price is irrelevant, I said there's no reason to believe that a SawStop is twice as expensive as some saws just because it has SawStop technology when Unisaw is also twice as expensive as some saws. The question is, how much more would it ad to the cost of a saw to ad SawStop technology and the answer is we don't know. Comparing SawStop to a similar high quality Unisaw, the prices are a few hundred dollars apart now, and we don't know if the price differential might be even less if everyone had to do it and the economies of scale that usually operate to drive price down were therefore to come into play.
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:08 pm
by dickg1
WOW! What a great discussion! Now if our Congress should attempt to agree as the principals have here, we would be in "tall cotton". Gentlemen, has anything moved toward a resolution in this collective dissertation? And would it matter?
At this point should we not wait to see the outcome and then draw any conclusion(s)?
Sorry, but it really seems "much ado about nothing" - or are we just puffing our collective breasts to demonstrate how much we know, or don't know?
Dick
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:11 pm
by algale
A number of people on this thread are apparently getting angry, and it has never been my intention to make anybody angry.
If anybody was insulted or angered by what I wrote, I am sorry.
Meanwhile, if anyone wishes to discuss this further, why don't we take it off line and PM each other?
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:11 pm
by JPG
algale wrote:So if you oppose things being rammed down your throat, do you agree with me that PTI getting riving knives and blade guards jammed down our throats is as bad as what Gass is doing?
You did not ask me, but I put do them in a different category. The reasons I do so have been explained ad nauseam! apparently we will just have agree to disagree!
It is all about that value weighing I mentioned earlier. Our values differ(I ain't talking about money!).
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:25 pm
by JPG
FWIW a generational difference has entered this polite discussion. Folks of my generation(that includes Dusty) consider bold face type to be nothing more than a method of emphasizing a statement or word.
As I have said before on this forum:
This is Shouting! And I did NOT use all caps!(another computer generation misconception).
It is not my intent to dis any one, but rather to point out different folks see things through different eyes and different life experiences.
Also I agree we are urinating in the breeze and will not solve nor affect any difference in the outcome. Hopefully we have listened to differing 'viewpoints' and caused us to examine our own understanding. Unfortunately we must presume much to base our opinions on because we do not know all the history....
Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:53 pm
by judaspre1982
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:27 am
by Ed in Tampa
algale wrote:So if you oppose things being rammed down your throat, do you agree with me that PTI getting riving knives and blade guards jammed down our throats is as bad as what Gass is doing?
I can't agree they are the same thing. With riving knives and blade guard no one person holds exclusive patent rights. Therefore the person that has most to gain is not the person pushing the action.
Let me say I apologize to you. The last time I priced a Unisaw they sold for $1500. I still think I can get one for close to that. However the list is apparently close to $3000+ (which I would never pay for one) and the list for the Sawstop is between $3400 and $3700 still an impressive difference.
If we look at the contractor saw we find a powermatic 64a selling for $1100 while the Sawstop is priced out at $1800 not quite double but over half again as much. Still no where near the 25% increase that Gass was touting.
Now we are comparing top of line to something that has yet been proven to be top of the line. However if we compare new commer to commer which is apples to apples we find Sawstop is priced nearly twice what Steel City saws sell for. I don't know if Sawstop is twice the value of Steel city but I doubt it.
Incidently what Gass is doing is no surprise to me, he is doing exactly what I expected him to do when I learned he was a lawyer. And we wonder why lawyers are looked upon with such distain.
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:48 am
by JPG
What he is doing is pretty close to ambulance chasing!