Shopsmith Forums

algale wrote:Fair points, but from what I understand the makers you identified, Steel City, Rigid, Orion, ShopFox, aren't really in the same league with Powermatic or Unisaw (the saws SawStops are most frequently compared to in terms of quality, fit, finish) or SawStop? Those saws are less expensive than Powermatic and Unisaw (and SawStop) for a reason. I suppose Gass could have targeted medium and lower end saws as his market and if I were making the decision, perhaps that's what I would have done. I don't think there's any inherently insoluble engineering problem with building his technology into saws that are comparable to the offerings of the companies you identified. Instead it appears Gass wanted to build high end saws -- some would say the best on the market -- to which he added his safety equipment. I can't blame the guy any more than one can blame Mercedes for refusing to offer cheaply made cars to compete in the low end car market.

Since SawStop has virtually taken over the school market and forced every school to sell or scrape their existing saws charging a premium was a great strategy to maximize profit. Insurance companies in Oregon and maybe elsewhere are refusing to insure any school and possibly business that does not have a SawStop. Some schools here were not even allowed to sell the saws they replaced.

Speaking to people who actually own one they claim even without the blade brake they are great saws equal to any of the high end saws on the market, the reason the other saws are being deeply discounted is they can't compete at the same price.

paulmcohen wrote: Insurance companies in Oregon and maybe elsewhere are refusing to insure any school and possibly business that does not have a SawStop.

Yep. If the government doesn't get you, the insurance companies will! At least when it comes to the government, you have the theoretical possibility of having your voice heard. Good luck with the insurance companies!

paulmcohen wrote:Since SawStop has virtually taken over the school market and forced every school to sell or scrape their existing saws charging a premium was a great strategy to maximize profit. Insurance companies in Oregon and maybe elsewhere are refusing to insure any school and possibly business that does not have a SawStop. Some schools here were not even allowed to sell the saws they replaced.

Speaking to people who actually own one they claim even without the blade brake they are great saws equal to any of the high end saws on the market, the reason the other saws are being deeply discounted is they can't compete at the same price.

What that accomplished in many schools in my area was the elimination of the industrial arts classes. In other words faced with cost of buying new saws it was cheaper to shut down the program.

What this effected was both young and old as most shops were used for adult education evening classes.

What a shame.

In the commercial arena I have noticed many have simply eliminated the table saw. Using instead guided saw systems, panel saws and or CNC machines.

Ed in Tampa wrote:What that accomplished in many schools in my area was the elimination of the industrial arts classes. In other words faced with cost of buying new saws it was cheaper to shut down the program.

What this effected was both young and old as most shops were used for adult education evening classes.

What a shame.

In the commercial arena I have noticed many have simply eliminated the table saw. Using instead guided saw systems, panel saws and or CNC machines.

Lets be realistic - many (most?) industrial arts programs in middle and high schools were scrapped long before the saw stop came along. I know that the middle schools in my area killed shop in the early 90s. My sibling took a shop class, but 4 years later when I got to the same school the program was axed.

Realistically speaking, I think its totally reasonable to be realistic about the tools used in shop classes when you have inexperienced operators. A sawstop just makes sense. Now, would it be good corporate citizenship to provide the saws at a deep discount to schools? Of course. Does that already happen? Who knows.

For what its worth, while the table saw is definitely a useful tool, it can also be dangerous (as with all tools). Risk mitigation just makes sense. For my money, I would prefer to have shop classes that focus on fundamentals rather than tools themselves. IE: how can you be creative and ingenious in doing the operation given the tools at hand, what is the safest way to do it, etc.

damagi wrote:Lets be realistic - many (most?) industrial arts programs in middle and high schools were scrapped long before the saw stop came along. I know that the middle schools in my area killed shop in the early 90s. My sibling took a shop class, but 4 years later when I got to the same school the program was axed.

Realistically speaking, I think its totally reasonable to be realistic about the tools used in shop classes when you have inexperienced operators. A sawstop just makes sense. Now, would it be good corporate citizenship to provide the saws at a deep discount to schools? Of course. Does that already happen? Who knows.

For what its worth, while the table saw is definitely a useful tool, it can also be dangerous (as with all tools). Risk mitigation just makes sense. For my money, I would prefer to have shop classes that focus on fundamentals rather than tools themselves. IE: how can you be creative and ingenious in doing the operation given the tools at hand, what is the safest way to do it, etc.

True
And that this is exactly why I'm excited about some of this. I believe it is going to force a new picture to be painted of the typical home owner/hobbiest work shop. I know much of the legislation in Europe has caused a rethinking to their approach on woodworking and I believe much of this new legislation will have the same effect here in the US.

But I still think Gass and the way he is trying to get his technology to be used is bottom feeding and something that is very very distasteful to me.

In this case the future ends does not justify his means in my book.

damagi wrote:Lets be realistic - many (most?) industrial arts programs in middle and high schools were scrapped long before the saw stop came along. I know that the middle schools in my area killed shop in the early 90s. My sibling took a shop class, but 4 years later when I got to the same school the program was axed.

Realistically speaking, I think its totally reasonable to be realistic about the tools used in shop classes when you have inexperienced operators. A sawstop just makes sense. Now, would it be good corporate citizenship to provide the saws at a deep discount to schools? Of course. Does that already happen? Who knows.

For what its worth, while the table saw is definitely a useful tool, it can also be dangerous (as with all tools). Risk mitigation just makes sense. For my money, I would prefer to have shop classes that focus on fundamentals rather than tools themselves. IE: how can you be creative and ingenious in doing the operation given the tools at hand, what is the safest way to do it, etc.

The first 'shop' class I took was in 7th grade(one local school had one in the 6th grade at a 'low income neighborhood').

There were NO 'power' tools. No chisels. Most dangerous tool was a coping saw(think hand operated jig saw). Learned to hate sanding! Learned about staining one's body parts and clothes. Was introduced to 'wood' viSes. The seed was firmly planted and has continued to mature although some would question if I have!:D

Shop classes with power tools came later in the 10th grade. However only the 'advanced' students were allowed access!!!!!


Now for all the younger folks here, the significance of the 6/7/9 grades was:

back in ancient times, there were grade schools(1-6), junior high(7-9) and high schools(10-12). Some smaller systems operated with elementary(1-8) and high schools(9-12). And some had kindergartens.


So much for nostalgia! Back to Gass bashing!