Some Shopsmith history (Kinda)

[pennview]

On the web today:
Craftsman 10" contractors saw - $570
Craftsman 15" drill press - $385
Jet 12 x 36 Variable Speed Lathe - $764 (at Woodcraft)
Rikon 12 Disk Sander - $219 (at Woodcraft)
Grizzly Horizontal Boring Machine - $475

Total - $2413

[damagi]

On the web today:
Craftsman 10" contractors saw - $570
Craftsman 15" drill press - $385
Jet 12 x 36 Variable Speed Lathe - $764 (at Woodcraft)
Rikon 12 Disk Sander - $219 (at Woodcraft)
Grizzly Horizontal Boring Machine - $475

Total - $2413

The real issue is more to do with the fact that you don't need a disk sander or a horizontal boring machine, and many may or may not need/want a lathe. As such, comparing 1:1 is not really grasping the full picture. In the same vein, having the space for the standalone machines is not the same issue either.

You really have to baseline in a few different ways:

1) are you starting from scratch or replacing other items?
2) how many of the functions actually have value for you. You may use them, but that doesn't necessarily they have full value for everyone. If you wouldn't otherwise buy a boring machine then its simply a nice-to-have, but you certainly shouldn't allocate the full $475 value to that function.
3) how much space do you have. This relates both to the value of the space "savings", but also to the changover "hassle".

This all gets more complex when you start considering the SPTs and such, as well as the used market.

[algale]

On the web today:
Craftsman 10" contractors saw - $570
Craftsman 15" drill press - $385
Jet 12 x 36 Variable Speed Lathe - $764 (at Woodcraft)
Rikon 12 Disk Sander - $219 (at Woodcraft)
Grizzly Horizontal Boring Machine - $475

Total - $2413

I did a similar comparison (using all Grizlly equipment) on this thread: http://shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=9989

Your comparison omits a few things that come standard with the Shopsmith if you buy one new. Lathe tools, drill bits, safety equipment, (not sure whether the Craftsman table saw comes with a good carbide combination blade). And when I did my list I should also have added that the Shopsmith comes with a comprehensive wood-working book. These things may seem small potatos, but when you figure in their prices they will bring the total price for the stand alones closer to the price of a new Shopsmith package.

In addition, I think some of the replacement tools on your list compare poorly to the Shopsmith in terms of either quality or functionality or both. Not sure exactly which Craftsman table saw and Craftsman drill press you are looking at for comparison purposes, but my experience with Craftsman power tools has been so negative that I could not see myself buying another Craftsman machine of any kind at any price. Your mileage may obviously vary.

Without repeating everything I said on that other thread about functionality, which can be hard to compare, these stand alones do sacrifice the functionality of a large table system and fence that can be used in the table saw, drill press, disc sander and hotizontal boring set ups. While many are used to having a large table saw table set up, its pretty extraordinary to have a large table and fence to use with a drill press or a disc sander or a horizontal boring machine, and I find the Shopsmith tables and fences incredibly useful in these modes. If I were going to replace the Shopsmith with these stand alones, I'd need to buy or spend money to build large tables for these tools. You also give up functionality with the Rikon disc sander, which is fixed speed. Can you get by with a fixed speed disc sander? I suppose yes, but the variable speed is a great function that lets you avoid burning certain woods that might burn with a fixed speed disc sander.

Speaking of disc sanders, I am going to add another advantage for the Shopsmith system verus all the stand alones --although it isn't entirely fair because it isn't a standard Shopsmith accessory (although it is so reasonably priced that anyone with a Shopsmith who doesn't have one really should consider getting one): the conical disc sander. When I bought that relatively inexpensive accessory, I wasn't sure how much use I would find for it. I find, however, that I am addicted to it for numerous jobs that would be hard to accomplish on any other piece of equipment. I think it is the best edge sanding machine out there for the home shop. To get its functionality in your home shop without a Shopsmith, you would have to buy a huge belt-style edge sanding machine, which can cost anywhere from about $900 up to the multi-thousand dollar level. And as I understand it, those stand alone edge sanding machines still limit the length of the edge you can sand on them. There's no limit to the length of the edge you can sand with the Shopsmith conical disc sander if you have proper infeed and outfeed support and I have edge sanded some long pieces.


Best,

Al

[Ed in Tampa]

Ed, if you are going to carry on this discussion - do it in today's dollars. Don't compare yesterdays costs with todays cost figure.

The $1200 that you spent when you bought your Mark V is more like $3000 in today's dollars. BTW, did you not get a bandsaw or dust collector along with that Mark V for $1200.

Another observation: After spending that $600 all you would be able to do is cut up large pieces of wood to make smaller pieces of wood. No drill, no sander, no lathe etc.

Dusty
No I did not get a bandsaw or a dust collector. The SS with standard tools (lathe chisles, saw blade, casters, and etc) was $1200 when I bought my SS.

I would use today's dollars if the table saw I was going to buy increased by today's dollars it didn't the Shopsmith went to $3000 but the delta contractor saw only when to $900, the lathe price actually came down so I'm pricing a far better lathe today as did the drill press.


As for your comment all I would be able to do is cut up wood isn't quite right. I could mount a 12" disk sander to the saw arbor or a molding head cutter. About the same as the SS in table saw mode.

[Ed in Tampa]

Everyone seems to be missing my point.
When I bought my SS the home hobbiest standard was 1 1/2 hp table saw with a 26 inch fence system. A fair drill press, a good lathe. A 12" disk sander and horizonal boring machine were not even thought of. And then cost about $1100 dollars or so.

Today a guy starting out can go get an excellent tablesaw with a 50" precision fence, a variable speed radial drill press and a variable speed excellent lathe for $2500 +or- a few hundred. He can do disk sanding and horizontal boring on the saw or lathe or drill.

What has happened is like almost every industry as technology increased prices came down and therefore features were added to keep the cost about the same. Except for Shopsmith where prices followed inflation but there were no compensation for technology advances that should have keep prices near the same.

I totally agree if Delta still built the contractor saw using the same technology they did when I bought my SS their price would have to reflect the inflation costs. However it doesn't! Today you can actually buy a better machine, with more features at about the same costs of that machine in 1980's. When Delta tablesaw went from a sloppy fence with 26" of cut to really nice fence with 50" of cut the price of the saw didn't jump $1000. In fact due to competition in many cases the price remained the same.

Yet when SS made the same change their machine did jump nearly $1000

And that is why SS are so hard to sell today to the new kid just starting up a shop.

[pennview]

Ok, no Craftsman stuff --

Rigid Contractors Saw - $499 (Home Depot)
Rigid 15 Drill Press - $499 (Home Depot)
Jet 12 x 36 Variable Speed Lathe - $764 (at Woodcraft)
Rikon 6x48 Belt and 10" Disk - $420 (at Woodcraft)
Grizzly Horizontal Boring Machine - $475

Sub Total - $2657

Great Neck 8 piece lathe chisel set - $80 (same as Shopsmith chisels, but 3 more)
170 piece brad point drill bit set - $40 (at Woodcraft)
Forrest Woodworker II Blade - $110 (at Woodcraft)
A Woodworking Book - $50

Grand Total - $2937

===========================================
OR

Delta Contractors Saw with Unifence - $950
Used Shopsmith - $300

Total - $1250

[algale]

Ok, no Craftsman stuff --

Rigid Contractors Saw - $499 (Home Depot)
Rigid 15 Drill Press - $499 (Home Depot)
Jet 12 x 36 Variable Speed Lathe - $764 (at Woodcraft)
Rikon 6x48 Belt and 10" Disk - $420 (at Woodcraft)
Grizzly Horizontal Boring Machine - $475

Sub Total - $2657

Great Neck 8 piece lathe chisel set - $80 (same as Shopsmith chisels, but 3 more)
170 piece brad point drill bit set - $40 (at Woodcraft)
Forrest Woodworker II Blade - $110 (at Woodcraft)
A Woodworking Book - $50

Grand Total - $2937

===========================================
OR

Delta Contractors Saw with Unifence - $950
Used Shopsmith - $300

Total - $1250

These totals are not too far off from what I got when I priced all new Grizzly stuff. I still think, however, that you are giving up a great deal of functionality, so I don't see buying all new stand alones as being a much better deal than buying a new Shopsmith.

Your second option, however, where you pick up a used Shopsmith for $300, raises another question that I haven't been able to answer. Why would anyone buy a new Shopsmith today when you can get a used one for a fraction of the price? Now, I haven't seen too many of the 510/520s in the price range of $300, but I do see them between $900-1500 with some regularity in my part of the country which is less than half the price new. And the fact is, these machines are so well built that they are often virtually as good as new or can be brought to new condition for not a lot of money. So why buy new? That's Shopsmith's big problem, as I see it. These machines can last forever with minor maintenance and there's an easy source for used machines and spare parts between ebay and Craigslist. This means that today's Shopsmith is in effect competing with Shopsmith/Magna products from the 1950s to the present, or in the case of the 510/520s from the 80s and 90s to the present. That's an unwinable battle. That's probably why Shopsmith developed the PowerPro --it is something that makes the machine new again and for which there won't be any competition from the distant past -- at least for a while.

Al

[pennview]

While I bought a new Shopsmith back in 1980 for about $1,000, I couldn't justify buying a new one at today's price. There are simply too many options out there that I'd find more attractive. Moreover, why would I buy new when a few months back I bought another Model 500 from the '80s off of Craigslist from for $100.

In general, for my needs, I don't find the Shopsmith sawing function satisfactory. The tilting table is just one issue I'm not interested in fooling with. That said, I found that I could make saw cuts on the Shopsmith that I couldn't on another saw -- like using a 4" diameter 1/32" thick metalworking slitting saw blade to cut feather/spline slots in the corners of small boxes.

With a nice table saw, I find the model 500 tables to be adequate for the other Shopsmith functions. But, you get a lot more stability and versitility with the 510/520.

I like my Shopsmith equipment and have quite a bit of the stuff, but I also have stand-alone equipment, so I have a clear understanding of what works and what doesn't, at least for me.

[dusty]

These totals are not too far off from what I got when I priced all new Grizzly stuff. I still think, however, that you are giving up a great deal of functionality, so I don't see buying all new stand alones as being a much better deal than buying a new Shopsmith.

Your second option, however, where you pick up a used Shopsmith for $300, raises another question that I haven't been able to answer. Why would anyone buy a new Shopsmith today when you can get a used one for a fraction of the price? Now, I haven't seen too many of the 510/520s in the price range of $300, but I do see them between $900-1500 with some regularity in my part of the country which is less than half the price new. And the fact is, these machines are so well built that they are often virtually as good as new or can be brought to new condition for not a lot of money. So why buy new? That's Shopsmith's big problem, as I see it. These machines can last forever with minor maintenance and there's an easy source for used machines and spare parts between ebay and Craigslist. This means that today's Shopsmith is in effect competing with Shopsmith/Magna products from the 1950s to the present, or in the case of the 510/520s from the 80s and 90s to the present. That's an unwinable battle. That's probably why Shopsmith developed the PowerPro --it is something that makes the machine new again and for which there won't be any competition from the distant past -- at least for a while.

Al

I'll not get into the new vs old discussion for a variety of reasons but I will comment on how I believe Shopsmith is "missing the boat".

With all those older machines out there, coupled with what appears to be a resurgence in retrofit activity, Shopsmith would do well to capitalize on the need for parts and accessories. They could easily become the primary source for repair parts if their prices were competitive. They, long ago, recovered the up front developmental costs associated with a new product but the prices they utilize do not reflect that.

Example: Upper Saw Guard 514366 - $81.99 or Riving Knife Assy 514358 - $44.42.

[mountainbreeze]

A quality table saw: $800-$1,000, a quality lathe: $1,500-$2,000, a quality drill press: $600-$800, a quality disc sander: $500, and a quality horizontal boring machine: lucky if you can find one at any decent price. These prices also do not include the extra accessories that Shopsmith includes either. On the low end of the list I compiled: $3,400, and that doesn't include the cost of a horizontal boring machine.

Lets not forget one other cost that for me (and many others) would have to be included - cost of building to house the separate tools: $4000-$10,000.