Shopsmith Forums

dusty wrote:Go read twenty posts to this forum (selected at random) and I believe you will find that we are talking about "nonshop" issues more than is appropriate on a woodworking forum.

I fear that this forum is beginning to go the way of many others. Maybe, just maybe we really know why reible is no longer in the group.

Oh my friend, I tried you challenge and I disagree! To tell the truth, I only selected 10 posts, but did it randomly from Beginning, General, and Woodworking tool review. I only used Community once. I only did ten posts, but took notes. Here's what I found. Jigsaw, Beal System, Waiting for Sander (a shipment problem), Chemical storage, Need Help, Safety switch, Streaming video question, Accessory Catalog, Snipe, 2 Bearing Quill.

These are all woodworking related postings. I tried to chose randomly, like going to the third thread down, the last thread showing on a page, and clicking down twice and then selecting the last thread. From my visual scan of the non-chosen threads - it looks like we are in great shape!

Too much computer time this A.M Gotta get to the shop! Bye now!

I tend to agree with Dusty. I birthed this thread on the hopes Shopsmith would respond and let us know their current thinking on collecting state sales tax.

Instead the thread (admittedly with my help) turned into a debate on taxation. I never meant this to become a debate on the moral correctness of paying taxes or a place to complain about the taxes we do have to pay.

What is evident is the fact that each state has it's own laws on the collecting of taxes. Some states require the selling company if they have a presence in the state to collect their state income tax. In other states they do not. There is no one universal law, nor a universal way to enforce any universal law should there be one.

I would like to see Shopsmith stop collecting sales tax on mail order/internet business in states that do not have an explicit law saying them must. However whether they do or do not I will still continue to do business with Shopsmith.

Before we go through each of the 50 states and each county or municipality within them listing the required sales tax let's get back to more interesting topics like cutting up wood.

I think we all agree we pay way to much tax when we have to pay it and not enough when something we want government to do is refuse because of a lack of funds.
Ed

I haven't waded into this fight because (1) my job is to answer questions on woodworking, help with tool maintenance, and make bad jokes; (2) I am not an employee of Shopsmith and therefore not entirely comfortable making comments on company position/policy; and (3) the position of the company is bound to be wildly unpopular and you will shoot the messenger.

However, I've been square with you before so I'll be square with you now -- then run like hell.

First: While we only have one Traveling Academy Instructor, we want him to be able to do his job in all 50 states. He doesn't get east much, that's true, but we're talking about a possible trip east for him right now and we hope there will be more in his future. If Rick cannot take advantage of the markets in the east, that hurts Rick, Shopsmith, and those of you who live east of his traditional territory.

Second: When we had finiacial problems last year and had to make cuts, by far the hardest program to reduce was the Traveling Academy. Not only is it popular, we lost two very good craftsmen/teachers/friends who had been with us a long time. We have hopes -- and more importantly, expectations -- of ramping up the Traveling Academy to its former levels. We're holding our own, even making some progress in a hostile economy. If our luck holds, the crick don't rise, and the economy recovers, we may be able to do that sooner rather than later. It would be time-consuming and counterproductive to abandon our vending licenses in most of the United States, then turn around and have to re-aquire them.

Third: The tone of this thread has been the we are charging you sales tax. We are not. We are collecting a tax and sending it to your state governments, and we are required by law to do so as long as our licenses are in effect. At least one of you has hinted that we may not be sending these taxes on to your states. Owing to the extreme rudeness of that remark and its libel, I'm not going to dignify that with a denial or any comment other than to say you owe us an apology.

Fourth: It is our understanding of tax law that the taxes we collect are something that you owe to your state in any event, whether our licenses are in effect or not. It is a myth-conception that many consumers have that we do not have to pay sales tax if we buy something from an out-of-state company. Try buying a car from someone in a neighboring state, then get a license for that car from your DMV without paying a sales tax on the purchase. It won't happen. Furthermore, there is a section of the Ohio Tax Form where I am asked to declare out-of-state purchases and pay sales tax on them. I'll bet there are similiar sections in every state tax form in every state where sales tax is collected. Let's not debate how many fill out these sections honestly; or even if the state expects us to fill them out honestly; when it comes to taxes many of us are a quart low on ethics. But if this is how the law reads in your state, then you have no cause for complaint.

Gotta run.

With all good wishes,

Nick wrote: (2) I am not an employee of Shopsmith ...

Really? Is the Academy not part of Shopsmith?

Slave labor. Bye now...

With all good wishes,

Hi dusty and all,
I find that for the most part, the forums on this site, other then this community one, stick to wood working subjects. We all tend to follow parts of threads that we take an interest in, causing the so-called hi-jacking of threads. I don't believe anyone that has been consistently posting here is without guilt on that account, including me, and you, and since you brought him up, Reible too. I don't have a problem with it; when you want to make a point about something talked about on a thread, it is hard to start a new thread on a different forum and refer to the one that started it. It is much easier to stick with the original forum and thread.

I also beleive that on this, the community forum, any subject is open for discussion, and that there has been nothing wrong with this thread. Different ideas should be welcome by all.

I am glad that Nick came on and "unofficially" stated ShopSmiths position. Even in those cases when SS is not obligated to collect, report, and pay the sales tax on orders they MAY collect, report, and pay it. They are unnecessarily cooperating with the various tax districts in order to keep their licenses, etc., current in each of the 50 states, in the hopes of "coming back". That relieves the purchaser from his/her legal obligation of reporting and paying the tax on their own; it does not unfairly add tax to the purchase. It also costs SS something (employee time to organize the info and fill out tax forms for all of those states that they collect it for and/or additional fees paid to an accounting company to do it for them), but they must feel that it is worth it, to keep their options (licenses) open.

Ed in Tampa wrote:.....................I think we all agree we pay way to much tax when we have to pay it and not enough when something we want government to do is refuse because of a lack of funds.
Ed

That is a fair statement. The only thing about it for me, is that I don't want the government to do much for me. What I do want them to do for me is keep their nose out of my business; quit forcing me to comply with laws that are passed "for my own good"; and not make it easier for foriegn companies to sell goods in this country then domestic companies can.

dusty wrote:In Arizona, long term gainful employment equals Arizona Driver's License. Arizona driver's license equals Arizona taxes. Also, it is illegal to have multiple driver's licenses. Maybe I now know why?

I was not suggesting a fake or extra drivers license just gloating about mine.

To me Nick clearly and completely answered my question of what was the reason Shopsmith still collects State Sales tax. The explanation is that Shopsmith still maintains vendor's licenses in those states. Therefore they have a presence in the state and must by law collect the tax.
That I think is clear enough.

I'm satisfied and I thank Nick for jumping in and giving the "offical" position.

Thanks Nick! Although I think you could have saved a lot of internet ink had you jumped in a little earlier, but better later than never.

What do you say guys can we finally bury this horse, the poor thing is flogged enough!
Ed

Ed in Tampa wrote:...............What do you say guys can we finally bury this horse, the poor thing is flogged enough!
Ed