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pieceseeker

Hello everyone! I do not own a SS ......yet. I need convincing that the SS is the way to go. Yes, I have a small work area, approx. 13'x 10', so that passes the smell test. It is a 2 sided screened in porch area with 2 brick walls on the interior, need to enclose and rewire for outlet...220v.

My main concern is the precision possible with the table saw. I have a fine DeWalt sliding compound mitre saw for long stock, so that's covered.

I'm looking at the new Mark 7. I've read a lot of the pro's and con's here and elsewhere in the forums. My dad bought a Mark 5 back in the 90's, didn't like it and let it go for a song. Don't know if it was a 510 or 520, maybe it didn't have the table upgrades, I just don't know. I don't think my dad was much of a woodworker, but loved building things...God rest his soul. My Mom once commented that he was a "botcher", God rest her soul. I don't think he really knew how to set up a saw to cut accurately, or to pay attention to the fine details of woodworking.

Anyway, I would like to hear from SS woodworkers about the real abilities of the new SS. I'm not only interested in the tablesaw portion, but also the abilities of the other 4 tool setups of the SS and any of its accessories available.

heathicus

You can definitely do precision work on the Shopsmith. Like any other tool, it comes to proper alignment, maintenance, and user technique. The tilting table and a single tool changing over to the various functions requires a different way of thinking about things compared to a shop full of standalone equipment. But even if you have a large shop of standalone equipment, you still have to think out your processes. And if you plan things out right on the Shopsmith, you can make use of your setups across functions. Set up for a cut with the table saw, then use the same set up for sanding or drilling for example. For me, the titlting table is the biggest challenge. But with your sliding compound miter saw, it might not be an issue for you.

pieceseeker

What about the other tools on the new Mark 7. The router, shaper, and accessories like the planer, bandsaw, joiner, how to they rate in performance and quality compared to other brands?

JPG

pieceseeker wroteHello everyone! I do not own a SS ......yet. I need convincing that the SS is the way to go. Yes, I have a small work area, approx. 13'x 10', so that passes the smell test. It is a 2 sided screened in porch area with 2 brick walls on the interior, need to enclose and rewire for outlet...220v.

My main concern is the precision possible with the table saw. I have a fine DeWalt sliding compound mitre saw for long stock, so that's covered.

I'm looking at the new Mark 7. I've read a lot of the pro's and con's here and elsewhere in the forums. My dad bought a Mark 5 back in the 90's, didn't like it and let it go for a song. Don't know if it was a 510 or 520, maybe it didn't have the table upgrades, I just don't know. I don't think my dad was much of a woodworker, but loved building things...God rest his soul. My Mom once commented that he was a "botcher", God rest her soul. I don't think he really knew how to set up a saw to cut accurately, or to pay attention to the fine details of woodworking.

Anyway, I would like to hear from SS woodworkers about the real abilities of the new SS. I'm not only interested in the tablesaw portion, but also the abilities of the other 4 tool setups of the SS and any of its accessories available.

I do not have a Mark 7. I do have a few earlier versions.

If buying new, the Mark 7 is a no-brainer(not enough $ difference to not go all the way).

It is called a Mark 7 because it has 7 major tool setups. The Mark 5/V five and under table shaping/routing(a decent argument can be made that the added two are essentially one).

The major decision is whether to get any Shopsmith.

I conclude from your comments that your father's experience has been reconciled. They do require some accommodation(as do stand alone stuff but differently).

At the present time RLF (SS) appears to be on firm footing. That has not been the case in the not so distant past.

As to the 'effectiveness' of SS vs other, that is a personal attitude issue.

Most here would agree that the craftsman makes the difference, not the tools.

Assuming you would eventually come the the same 'understanding' as 'most' of those frequenting here, you will not regret getting a Mark 7. JMHO

Ed in Tampa

pieceseeker wroteHello everyone! I do not own a SS ......yet. I need convincing that the SS is the way to go. Yes, I have a small work area, approx. 13'x 10', so that passes the smell test. It is a 2 sided screened in porch area with 2 brick walls on the interior, need to enclose and rewire for outlet...220v.

My main concern is the precision possible with the table saw. I have a fine DeWalt sliding compound mitre saw for long stock, so that's covered.

I'm looking at the new Mark 7. I've read a lot of the pro's and con's here and elsewhere in the forums. My dad bought a Mark 5 back in the 90's, didn't like it and let it go for a song. Don't know if it was a 510 or 520, maybe it didn't have the table upgrades, I just don't know. I don't think my dad was much of a woodworker, but loved building things...God rest his soul. My Mom once commented that he was a "botcher", God rest her soul. I don't think he really knew how to set up a saw to cut accurately, or to pay attention to the fine details of woodworking.

Anyway, I would like to hear from SS woodworkers about the real abilities of the new SS. I'm not only interested in the tablesaw portion, but also the abilities of the other 4 tool setups of the SS and any of its accessories available.

To me the real question is how experienced are you in woodworking? If you are experienced and know you need a jointer, planner, drill press, lathe, bandsaw and such you will never get them all into your space and still have room to work. So in that aspect yes a SS would be right for you.

However if you are fairly new at woodworking and are just looking for a saw to make repairs and perhaps play around with a lathe and such you can do this far cheaper than a new Shopsmith. And you probably should go that way at least until you know enough about woodworking to answer this question for yourself.

As far as precision goes the SS is more than capable, but at a cost, you have to adjust and maintain where a standalone table saw is basically initial adjustment and you are good to go.

Turth be told most of us would perfer individual stand alone machines but few of us have the room to adquately use them so we have gone to SS to get around the room issue.

Sure there are those of us that have 100x100 workshops that swear by SS but in most cases these are guys that like trying this and that with the SS to see if they can do it.

pieceseeker

I was thinking along the same lines, that if I bought a used machine, by the time I do upgrades, restorations(cleanup, parts, time), I would likely end up spending close to a new unit anyway. The only difference is the number of accessories a used unit may come with and do they need work!

fredsheldon

Being able to vary the speed of the motor on the PowerPro from 250 to 10,000 forwards or backwards at the push of a button for all operations makes up for any shortcomings the SS may have compared to other standalone tools in my opinion. If you do a lot of drill press work, acquiring a used 60 year old 10ER dedicated to just drill press work for around $150 would eliminated one of the shortcomings I'm referring to.

JPG

pieceseeker wroteWhat about the other tools on the new Mark 7. The router, shaper, and accessories like the planer, bandsaw, joiner, how to they rate in performance and quality compared to other brands?

The jointer is small. The bandsaw is small. The scroll saw is good. The planer is excellent! The belt sander is better than excellent! The strip sander is also good. Routing is a matter of opinion(kinda slow compared to hand held routers). Shaping is also a bit slow(molder is a different animal). Slowness is partly offset by the Mark 7 top speed.

All that said(as partly opinion) the quality and durability(and repairability if eventually needed) are good(better than much that is out there today).

Now there is no way to equate it all with a shop full of excellent stand alone tools. We would all like to drive a rolls(or be driven in one:D), but that is not attainable for most of us.

Now you asked for an opinion from 'opinionated' folks. There are also those opinions of folks with no hands on experience with any SS.

I leave it for you to decide which to 'listen' to.;)

pieceseeker

Ed in Tampa wroteTo me the real question is how experienced are you in woodworking? If you are experienced and know you need a jointer, planner, drill press, lathe, bandsaw and such you will never get them all into your space and still have room to work. So in that aspect yes a SS would be right for you.

However if you are fairly new at woodworking and are just looking for a saw to make repairs and perhaps play around with a lathe and such you can do this far cheaper than a new Shopsmith. And you probably should go that way at least until you know enough about woodworking to answer this question for yourself.

As far as precision goes the SS is more than capable, but at a cost, you have to adjust and maintain where a standalone table saw is basically initial adjustment and you are good to go.

Turth be told most of us would perfer individual stand alone machines but few of us have the room to adquately use them so we have gone to SS to get around the room issue.

Sure there are those of us that have 100x100 workshops that swear by SS but in most cases these are guys that like trying this and that with the SS to see if they can do it.

I have not done much woodworking, mainly because of time issues (I work alot), but I have done some in the past. I am 60 (can't hardly believe it myself), live in a duplex that I own and am remodeling one side right now, but have visions of doing cabinet work and furniture pieces as time permits. I am in excellent health, so I should have 20 years or so to "play around" with woodworking. Given the longevity of the SS, it should last the rest of my life. I would like to start off by building some top quality jigs as beginning practice

JPG

The SPT's have changed little over time. For the most part, all of them are compatible with the mark 7. They can be obtained used, and yes that can be a crap shoot, but all are repairable.

I do not know what brand CMS you have, but my Ridgid is presently a boat anchor(not a very good anchor either) since I cannot get a drive train part for a less than 10 yr old saw!:mad:

One caveat. Lately SS has been responding in a like manner. However most(not all) major parts are still 'in production' even for half century old models.

JPG

A duplex!

Oh yer tenants are gonna love that machine at 0200!:D

pieceseeker

JPG40504 wroteThe jointer is small. The bandsaw is small. The scroll saw is good. The planer is excellent! The belt sander is better than excellent! The strip sander is also good. Routing is a matter of opinion(kinda slow compared to hand held routers). Shaping is also a bit slow(molder is a different animal). Slowness is partly offset by the Mark 7 top speed.

All that said(as partly opinion) the quality and durability(and repairability if eventually needed) are good(better than much that is out there today).

Now there is no way to equate it all with a shop full of excellent stand alone tools. We would all like to drive a rolls(or be driven in one:D), but that is not attainable for most of us.

Now you asked for an opinion from 'opinionated' folks. There are also those opinions of folks with no hands on experience with any SS.

I leave it for you to decide which to 'listen' to.]

Precisely why I'm asking my questions here. My limits are space and money for shop full of excellent (expensive) stand alone machinery.

Ed in Tampa

pieceseeker wroteWhat about the other tools on the new Mark 7. The router, shaper, and accessories like the planer, bandsaw, joiner, how to they rate in performance and quality compared to other brands?

My opinion of the other accessories is this. Most of the accessories are excellent for casual use. Building a project or two a year with these exceptions.

Planner is way over priced compared to what is available today. For as often as I plan my $300 delta dual speed works more than good enough. Jointer is small by most standards today. I find I work with smaller pieces because of how I was trained so it works for me but I would never turn down a larger jointer if I had the room. Bandsaw is fine but I lust over a really nice 14 or 16" standalone bandsaw.

As a lathe the Ss is great but you find nearly equal lathes for less than $1000.

As a disk sander most guys don't own one and don't know how handy it is.

As a Horizontal boring machine again most guys don't have one and about once every 5-10 years really need one.

As a shaper/router most larger routers do as good if not better job. But the cost $300+. Although you can find cheaper if you are patient.

Drum sanding is good but you can do that on a drill press.

As a drill press the SS serves me well but I always always worry that I going to break my machine because I tend to hog stuff on a drill press.

As a table saw there are short comings that I just don't like but I don't have the space for the saw I want. If I did I would have a saw in a New York minute.

I don't think anyone can deny the SS is a compromise. However it is a compromise that most of us make because of space.

pieceseeker

JPG40504 wroteThe SPT's have changed little over time. For the most part, all of them are compatible with the mark 7. They can be obtained used, and yes that can be a crap shoot, but all are repairable.

I do not know what brand CMS you have, but my Ridgid is presently a boat anchor(not a very good anchor either) since I cannot get a drive train part for a less than 10 yr old saw!:mad:

One caveat. Lately SS has been responding in a like manner. However most(not all) major parts are still 'in production' even for half century old models.

Backwards compatibility and repairability are one of the things I like about what I'm reading of the SS.

Ed in Tampa

pieceseeker wroteBackwards compatibility and repairability are one of the things I like about what I'm reading of the SS.

I think you have already made up your mind. If I were you I would order the machine.

terrydowning

Understand the difference between Changeover and Setup.

Changeover (swapping one function for another) takes very little time. Setup (preparing your machine to make a cut or do an operation) takes longer. Setup is an issue whether you're using the most expensive standalone tool, the cheapest bench model, or anything in between. setup is also where the quality is. There are circumsatnces in which the SS excels in terms of setup.

Setup table saw for a compound miter. Leave table angles(setup) alone, change over to horizontal boring and drill dowel holes using the very same setup, change over to sander and sand the cut using the very same setup.

That being said. Be advised that the SS is a "Multi-Function Tool" and has inherent compromises. Yes, the table tilts rather than the arbor. The argument over tilt the table vs. tilt the arbor has been around for longer than SS has been made.

Table saw - As good or better than any bench top out there. Not as nice as a top of the line uni-saw or saw stop, but the 520 tables are quite large and I understand the 520 pro-fence is very good.

Lathe - as good as any medium priced midi lathe on the market. Not as nice as a Powermatic 4224, Robust American Beauty, or Oneway but you'll pay more for one of those. The new Mark 7 solves the speed range issues of previous Mark 5s, weight and tailstock stability, and tool rest stability are still issues. But these can be worked around.

Drill Press -Excellent both horizontal and vertical

12" variable speed sander - the best there is. Most 12" sanders are single speed and those are expensive.

The 11" band saw with it's 6" resaw capacity is IMHO equal to most 14" band saws on the market. Used models can be found for $100-$300. Would I love to have the space/budget for a 20" Laguna? Sure, but then I would want something bigger/stronger or smaller/more precise. Most tool people always want another tool.

The 4" jointer is on the small side. I wish a 6" or 8" was available. That being said, it is very capable and very stable.

Disclaimer:

My SS is a 1955 Mark V with a 3/4 HP motor with the original table and fence.

I have worked with 4x8 sheet goods (with assistance).

I have not used other SPTs so can't speak for them.

I do have a three cutter shaper head and have cut some profiles with that without issue.

For routing I use hand held routers.

Ultimately the decision is yours. IMHO the SS Products are more than capable and better than average tools for the home hobbyist/semi-pro wood worker. There are even a couple of professional wood workers on this site that use SS tools.

dusty

I am going to try hard not to pick a fight with those who whose opinions I disagree, but I do disagree and am not fearful of saying so.

Yes, the Shopsmith is different than stand alone equipment but there are very few wood working tasks that can not be done just as well and just as easily on a Shopsmith as on stand alones.

This is possibly not the right tool for a professional carpenter or professional cabinet maker but for a non-professional hobyist it is idea.

The only Mark 5/V/7 characteristic that I could do without is the tilting table and even that is quit serviceable. You just have to get use to it and make a few mental adjustments.

Some will tell you that you can equip a stand alone shop much more cheaply than you can purchase Shopsmith and that is true but to do so you have to sacrifice in quality and versatility.

These are all personal decisions that you have to make yourself but I am very well satisfied with mine and what I paid for it. BTW, my shop is about twenty five years old and going strong. I have experienced NO breakdowns in that time.

I work in a 20' garage.

JPG

dusty wroteI am going to try hard not to pick a fight with those who whose opinions I disagree, but I do disagree and am not fearful of saying so.

Yes, the Shopsmith is different than stand alone equipment but there are very few wood working tasks that can not be done just as well and just as easily on a Shopsmith as on stand alones.

This is possibly not the right tool for a professional carpenter or professional cabinet maker but for a non-professional hobyist it is idea.

The only Mark 5/V/7 characteristic that I could do without is the tilting table and even that is quit serviceable. You just have to get use to it and make a few mental adjustments.

Some will tell you that you can equip a stand alone shop much more cheaply than you can purchase Shopsmith and that is true but to do so you have to sacrifice in quality and versatility.

These are all personal decisions that you have to make yourself but I am very well satisfied with mine and what I paid for it. BTW, my shop is about twenty five years old and going strong. I have experienced NO breakdowns in that time.

I work in a 20' garage.

Who ya 'disagreeing' with?:confused:;)

pieceseeker

terrydowning wroteUnderstand the difference between Changeover and Setup.

Changeover (swapping one function for another) takes very little time. Setup (preparing your machine to make a cut or do an operation) takes longer. Setup is an issue whether you're using the most expensive standalone tool, the cheapest bench model, or anything in between. setup is also where the quality is. There are circumsatnces in which the SS excels in terms of setup.

Setup table saw for a compound miter. Leave table angles(setup) alone, change over to horizontal boring and drill dowel holes using the very same setup, change over to sander and sand the cut using the very same setup.

That being said. Be advised that the SS is a "Multi-Function Tool" and has inherent compromises. Yes, the table tilts rather than the arbor. The argument over tilt the table vs. tilt the arbor has been around for longer than SS has been made.

Table saw - As good or better than any bench top out there. Not as nice as a top of the line uni-saw or saw stop, but the 520 tables are quite large and I understand the 520 pro-fence is very good.

Lathe - as good as any medium priced midi lathe on the market. Not as nice as a Powermatic 4224, Robust American Beauty, or Oneway but you'll pay more for one of those. The new Mark 7 solves the speed range issues of previous Mark 5s, weight and tailstock stability, and tool rest stability are still issues. But these can be worked around.

Drill Press -Excellent both horizontal and vertical

12" variable speed sander - the best there is. Most 12" sanders are single speed and those are expensive.

The 11" band saw with it's 6" resaw capacity is IMHO equal to most 14" band saws on the market. Used models can be found for $100-$300. Would I love to have the space/budget for a 20" Laguna? Sure, but then I would want something bigger/stronger or smaller/more precise. Most tool people always want another tool.

The 4" jointer is on the small side. I wish a 6" or 8" was available. That being said, it is very capable and very stable.

Disclaimer:

My SS is a 1955 Mark V with a 3/4 HP motor with the original table and fence.

I have worked with 4x8 sheet goods (with assistance).

I have not used other SPTs so can't speak for them.

I do have a three cutter shaper head and have cut some profiles with that without issue.

For routing I use hand held routers.

Ultimately the decision is yours. IMHO the SS Products are more than capable and better than average tools for the home hobbyist/semi-pro wood worker. There are even a couple of professional wood workers on this site that use SS tools.

I was thinking that I read on the SS site, that there is an upgrade to the lathe tool rest. In fact there are several upgrades to many of the accessories available.

pieceseeker

dusty wroteI am going to try hard not to pick a fight with those who whose opinions I disagree, but I do disagree and am not fearful of saying so.

Yes, the Shopsmith is different than stand alone equipment but there are very few wood working tasks that can not be done just as well and just as easily on a Shopsmith as on stand alones.

This is possibly not the right tool for a professional carpenter or professional cabinet maker but for a non-professional hobyist it is idea.

The only Mark 5/V/7 characteristic that I could do without is the tilting table and even that is quit serviceable. You just have to get use to it and make a few mental adjustments.

Some will tell you that you can equip a stand alone shop much more cheaply than you can purchase Shopsmith and that is true but to do so you have to sacrifice in quality and versatility.

These are all personal decisions that you have to make yourself but I am very well satisfied with mine and what I paid for it. BTW, my shop is about twenty five years old and going strong. I have experienced NO breakdowns in that time.

I work in a 20' garage.

Thanks Dusty for your opinion. I remember my Dad's Mark 5, it was a beautiful machine. My Dad was not computer or internet savy, and I think he was lacking the sufficient information and support which the internet gives, was a source of frustration with the machine. Not knowing how to use or even have a dial indicator for setup or for that matter the patience to persevere to get it right I think was my Dad's ultimate downfall to being happy and satisfied with such a beautiful machine. Maybe it is a little more high maintenance as far as setting up from what I read, but you can really get intimate with a machine that way. Please, no play on words here OK?