The China Syndrome.

[charlese]

Thanks for the article, Pat! I never would have seen it if you had not posted. Looks like the SS bowl turning set compares favorably to the Sorby brand (from U.K.).

[shydragon]

Yes, it does seems as if near the top of the pack. It just bothers me, that it is made in China, especially since we have all been talking, "buy US made".

[a1gutterman]

It says this in that same article. At the bottom of the chart, it lists Shopsmith3, and just to the right is country of origin. The "3" at the bottom of the chart mentions this as the 4 piece bowl turning set, but adds this is not the standard 5 piece set. I'm not sure where that is made.

Thank you Pat. I could knot read the numbered notes until I printed it. As far as I can tell, it does knot say that the 5pc regular set is knot made in China, only that the set they tested was knot the standard turning set.

Chuck, It does seem to be comparable to the Sorby, and that is commendable on ShopSmith's part, but as I see it, there are still some problems, a couple of which are: 1) In one way or another, profits that China gets from these tools goes to the Chinese government, which can use it to work against us, again, in one way or another; and 2) The price that we pay for them, while might or might knot be less then the Sorby's, does not reflect the low wage that the Chinese factory worker gets. Somebody, whether it is ShopSmith (and I am knot saying that I think it is them), ShopSmith's supplier, or someone else entirely, is making more profit for sales of these tools then the competion is for their more costly manufacturing expenses, and ripping the American consumer off.

[charlese]

....2) The price that we pay for them, while might or might knot be less then the Sorby's, does not reflect the low wage that the Chinese factory worker gets. Somebody, whether it is ShopSmith (and I am knot saying that I think it is them), ShopSmith's supplier, or someone else entirely, is making more profit for sales of these tools then the competion is for their more costly manufacturing expenses, and ripping the American consumer off.

Tim I would like to respectfully disagree with the above quote. Just because one business sells a similar product at a lesser cost than another, does not mean the higher priced seller (or supplier) is ripping anyone off. That's the nature of business. After all the amount of wages/salaries paid workers along with benefits are only one part of the cost equation. Although often, in the U.S. wages and benefits are among the highest cost factors of the manufacturing. (see discussion re: Unions)

Let me give you an analogy that doesn't include wages: Aside from my employment, I moonlighted as a public performer/entertainer for 18 years. Actually had a small business and was in demand. Although I was often told by customers that I didn't charge enough, I kept my fees at the same lower rate. (Tax Reasons) Others (competition) were full time professionals. They figured their fees on the basis of what they needed to make per year for their own purposes. I was sometimes bad mouthed by the full timers, claiming I was causing potential customers to ask them for my "slave wages".

This does not mean that the full time professionals were ripping people off. It merely meant that they were charging what they needed in order to keep their business.

[a1gutterman]

edit: Chuck had posted a response (and I quoted it), which the following post of mine was responding to. As he decided to delete it, I have chosen to remove the quote from my post too.

Hi Chuck!
Thanks for chiming in! If I read you right, by your analogy, you are trying to show me that the higher priced "full time professionals" were not ripping any body off. If that is what you think I meant, I did not make myself very clear. I am sorry for the confusion. I was meaning that the product that is made in China, at a low cost, was being sold to Americans at a price that was too high, and therefore, the American consumer was being ripped off.

Here is what I mean: Even if the Chinese product is lower priced then the American product, it is still priced too high. The product that is made in America is costlier, due to many reasons, not the least of which is a high wage paid to the worker. Now, the American companies that have moved their manufacturing to China have a substantial lower overhead, yet price their product only a small amount less then the same product that is made in America. I am knot talking about cheap junk that no one expects to last long; I am talking about things like OTC bottle jacks, and Stanley brand tools, and Porter Cable power tools and ShopSmith lathe chisels... the list goes on. On these type of products, sometimes bought by consumers that do knot even realize they are buying product manufactured in China, the retail price does not reflect the savings to the manufacturer. The manufacturer is realizing a much greater profit, or the distributor, or the wholesaler, or the retailer or all of them. But regardless of who is making more profit, they are ripping off the American public. If the price difference is truly as little as the market shows, why did manufactureres move to China? When Stanley shut down their American plants and started selling product here that is made in China, they did not reduce the price to reflect their savings. They relied on their name to continue to sell their product at the same prices that they sold them before. Please tell me why they needed to move to China if the retail price was going to remain the same? I say they are ripping off America. Not just Stanley, but all the manufacturers. And on top of that, they are now giving American dollars to China who will build up their military, a military that will be used against us when they are ready.

edit: What happened to your post Chuck? I hit the quote button and wrote this response, and when I posted it, your original post was gone!

[charlese]

edit: What happened to your post Chuck? I hit the quote button and wrote this response, and when I posted it, your original post was gone!

I posted too late at night - After reading it, decided it didn't make sense and I was too tired to fix it. So deleted it.

What I wanted to say is: Just because identical products don't sell at the same price does not mean someone is ripping off the purchaser by relying on slave labor. Different goals, aims, purposes objectives, or direction or political system can account for much of the price differences.

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Now to continue with the soapbox:
If one thinks that every person in the world should receive the same income, regardless of the value of his work, there is a name for that system - and socialism has been proven to not work for long. Individual needs and desires always win out. However, sometimes it helps to extend such a political system if the leader has an army on his side.

Yes, companies throughout the world out source to China among other countries in an effort to cut their costs, because no one would buy their product if it there was a choice of an equal product at a much lesser value. Companies do their best to assure quality of the outsourced materials. There is no sure thing, however.

Brand loyalty will only go so far.-- Even some stuff made in the U.S.A. came out pretty inferior. How about the big rattle laden junk automobiles that lost out to Japanese technology in the past few decades. I can remember when most people in the U.S. considered anything made in Japan as junk. They sold the junk while building a state of the art manufacturing center. Switzerland used to be the center of precise time pieces, until overtaken by Japan and their quartz/electric watches and clocks. Our capitalistic system is very interesting. It is always changing, and often depends on outside sources. A blanket isolationship from the rest of the world would be a complete disaster, as would isolation from a developing technological center like China. We used to say it is all about productivity! Maybe it still is!

China is becoming a huge manufacturing center, because they desire to improve their standard of living and economic status in the world. Much as we did after WWI the great depression and WWII.

With the world oil price increases, much of it being blamed on China's increased demand for oil - who knows, maybe we are headed toward a big economic shakeup again. I know that we are not exempt from world oil prices and everything that drags along with them, but then neither is China. Right now, we are (as a population) too content. (spoiled - fat and happy and bitchy)

[a1gutterman]

Hi Chuck,
Although your view here is well put, I still see some things that need considering:

I posted too late at night - After reading it, decided it didn't make sense and I was too tired to fix it. So deleted it.

What I wanted to say is: Just because identical products don't sell at the same price does not mean someone is ripping off the purchaser by relying on slave labor. Different goals, aims, purposes objectives, or direction or political system can account for much of the price differences.

I was not referring to product that have a large difference in price] Yes, companies throughout the world out source to China among other countries in an effort to cut their costs, because no one would buy their product if it there was a choice of an equal product at a much lesser value. Companies do their best to assure quality of the outsourced materials. [/quote]Again, I say that some of those companies did "out source to China...in an effort to cut their costs", but they did knot reduce the price that they charge the consumer.

Brand loyalty will only go so far.

Stanley, in particular, bought out many of it's competitors, then they shut down the American factories which employed American workers and out sourced to China, with very little in the way of competition, they can still charge the "American made" price for the Chinese made product.

-- Even some stuff made in the U.S.A. came out pretty inferior. How about the big rattle laden junk automobiles that lost out to Japanese technology in the past few decades.

It was American unions that wood not cooperate with the American car manufacturers that enabled Japan to pull ahead of us in that area. (See this video: http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189 ) The American unions are still fighting the technology that enables the US car makers to make those improvements necessary to compete with the Japanese technology.

I can remember when most people in the U.S. considered anything made in Japan as junk.

It Was Junk

They sold the junk while building a state of the art manufacturing center.

Again, something that the US car makers wanted to do, but the unions fought against that technology, just as they still are fighting it.

...Our capitalistic system is very interesting. It is always changing, and often depends on outside sources. A blanket isolationship from the rest of the world would be a complete disaster, as would isolation from a developing technological center like China.

I completely agree with those statements] We used to say it is all about productivity! Maybe it still is! [/quote]Only when all other things are equal.

China is becoming a huge manufacturing center, because they desire to improve their standard of living and economic status in the world. Much as we did after WWI the great depression and WWII.

That may be part of it, but I truly believe that they have discovered that they can finance their military with American dollars, a military that they have long range plans for.

With the world oil price increases, much of it being blamed on China's increased demand for oil - who knows, maybe we are headed toward a big economic shakeup again. I know that we are not exempt from world oil prices...

Currently the blame is being directed at market speculators, not an increased demand.

...and everything that drags along with them, but then neither is China. Right now, we are (as a population) too content. (spoiled - fat and happy and bitchy)

Oakay, I resemble that remark.

Well Chuck, you did invite me into your post,

Now you can take after my recent "China post"

you pushed a few of my buttons and hit on several, as far as I am concerned, subjects. I hope that we are still friends, but more importantly, I hope that you buy American.

[dusty]

None of these manufacturers/distributors are in business to give us a better product at a lower price. If they do set a low price, there is a reason;trying to capture a market or trying to reduce inventory or trying to run a competition out of business, etc.

They all (including those we love) set their prices as high as the market will bear.

It is an economic principle that works and lives on.

[dusty]

Tim, et al;

I certainly hope you have written your congressmen on this subject as frequently as you vent here on this forum. After all, they can do something about it, if they will.

Do you know what position your congressmen have taken on this subject? What is their voting record?:eek:

[dusty]

[quote="wa2crk"]Dusty]

Maybe Shopsmith needs a one time good deal on taxes like IBM and Hughes both were given a few years ago to entice a move to Arizona.

I'd vote for that.

BTW, the IBM precense here is now minimal.