The China Syndrome.

[a1gutterman]

Maybe Shopsmith needs a one time good deal on taxes like IBM and Hughes both were given a few years ago to entice a move to Arizona.

I'd vote for that.

BTW, the IBM precense here is now minimal.

Hi Dusty,
It is my understanding that IBM sold out to a Chinese company within the last couple of years. Maybe that explains their minimal presence?

edit: The quotes from dusty on this post were taken from a post on this thread that no longer exists.

[dusty]

Hi Dusty,
It is my undeerstanding that IBM sold out to a Chinese company within the last couple of years. Maybe that explains their minimal presence?

I sure hope, Tim, that you have good justification for making statements like this. I would not like to think that these comments are made just to make it appear that someone other than the USA is the dominent world force these days.

The US held that position for so many, many years. The question is - did we give it up wisely or did we screw ourselves? Maybe we don't have the "big stick" anymore.

You do have these correspondence exchanges with your congressmen - I just know you do!

NO. I don't know that IBM sold out to anyone. It seems that would have been big press. Did I miss it? That would have been about the time I was all doped up in the nursing care facility. There are many joint ventures with China as we all know.

http://www.made-in-china.com/Tools-Hardware-Catalog/Power-Tools.html

http://www.research.ibm.com/beijing/

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/17/content_425962.htm

[a1gutterman]

I sure hope, Tim, that you have good justification for making statements like this. I would not like to think that these comments are made just to make it appear that someone other than the USA is the dominent world force these days.

See the last paragraph on this page of the IBM web site: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_2004.html

US held that position for so many, many years. The question is - did we give it up wisely or did we screw ourselves? Maybe we don't have the "big stick" anymore.

Personally, I think we have "screwed ourselves".

You do have these correspondence exchanges with your congressmen - I just know you do!

Some, but not enough.

NO. I don't know that IBM sold out to anyone. It seems that would have been big press. Did I miss it? That would have been about the time I was all doped up in the nursing care facility.

Lenovo Group Limited -- the leading Personal Computer brand in China and across Asia -- and IBM announce in December a definitive agreement under which Lenovo will acquire IBM's Personal Computing Division to form the world's third-largest PC business.

They do it quietly, but quite publicly. At the time of this "change" there was a small up-roar on the news, but it did not last long.

BTW, their web site that I visited is called "IBM United States".

edit: I see that you visited IBM Beijing.

edit: The quotes from dusty on this post were taken from a post on this thread that no longer exists.

[a1gutterman]

I sure hope, Tim, that you have good justification for making statements like this. I would not like to think that these comments are made just to make it appear that someone other than the USA is the dominent world force these days.

The US held that position for so many, many years. The question is - did we give it up wisely or did we screw ourselves? Maybe we don't have the "big stick" anymore.

You do have these correspondence exchanges with your congressmen - I just know you do!

NO. I don't know that IBM sold out to anyone. It seems that would have been big press. Did I miss it? That would have been about the time I was all doped up in the nursing care facility. There are many joint ventures with China as we all know.

http://www.made-in-china.com/Tools-Hardware-Catalog/Power-Tools.html

http://www.research.ibm.com/beijing/

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/17/content_425962.htm

Hi Dusty,
You added a few things to your post since I responded to it. Like those links. And the comment about joint ventures. Here is a link to look at: http://www.lenovo.com/lenovo/us/en/history.html

Lenovo is most definitely a Chinese company. And they do definitely "own" a significant part of IBM. That gives the Chinese access to a whole lot of technology that they previously did not have access to. The small up-roar that I mentioned in the above post was due to that access.

I do believe that the statement that I made, that you questioned, was justified.

edit: The quotes from dusty on this post were taken from a post on this thread that no longer exists.

[dusty]

I'm really not much of a historian and I never pretend to be but 1984 is about the time that the US Government lifted most of its restrictions on technological information exchange. The information that you provide seems to indicate that the Chinese were in the outer office the day that this happened.

Tim; I hope you are not an NBA basketball fan.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/special-offers.workflow:ShowPromo?LandingPage=/All/US/Sitelets/NBA

Face it, every where you look you will see a Chinese presence, right along with Japanese, Taiwanese, German, British, Korean and many others. The USA no longer has a technological/intellectual dominence. In fact, I fear we are falling rapidly, soon to become the minority. Go sit in class in a half dozen different high schools and see for yourself.

[a1gutterman]

I'm really not much of a historian and I never pretend to be but 1984 is about the time that the US Government lifted most of its restrictions on technological information exchange. The information that you provide seems to indicate that the Chinese were in the outer office the day that this happened.

Tim]http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/cont ... telets/NBA[/URL]

Face it, every where you look you will see a Chinese presence, right along with Japanese, Taiwanese, German, British, Korean and many others. The USA no longer has a technological/intellectual dominence. In fact, I fear we are falling rapidly, soon to become the minority. Go sit in class in a half dozen different high schools and see for yourself.

I do not remember that release of technology, Dusty, but there are some technological things that even today, the US government tries to keep out of the hands of foriegners. I try to not have a defeatist attitude, rather, I hope that there will be a turn around. All it takes is us. Buy American. I do knot have to accept anything. I can fight and be defiant and vocal (but on this forum, I try to keep it in the "Community" section only).

edit: The quotes from dusty on this post were taken from a post on this thread that no longer exists.

[charlese]

Yes, Tim, we are still friends! Good ones at that. Just like most in this Shopsmith Family. Kinda reminds me of Thanksgiving dinner around a great big table. Don't really want to push your buttons, but am going to mention a few things I think I have learned.

Many of the greatest U.S. inventions came from foreign sources. Albert Einstein was born abroad, so were the rocket propulsion guys. When they came over from Nazi Germany, they brought the technology with them. There are quite a few more, but I'm not going to strain my memory.

Let's go to China. When the Mongol hoards invaded China, the Chinese invented the crossbow. Later they invented gun powder, then cannons and guns. Don't know where rifling came from! Whatever kind of Governing body the Chinese have had, the people have remained very resourceful. My Chinese friends, here in the U.S. are very proud of their ancestors and relatives in China. Although they don't agree with Communism, they are proud of their people.

In addressing all of the inexpensive manufacturing from China, we might as well bring up the fruit and vegetables imported from Central and South America. The U.S. used to be able to supply all of those food stuffs. Wonder what happened here?

To be honest, I really dislike the whine- "it's not fair" - when addressing economic stuff. We in the U.S. didn't worry about "what's fair" when we were top dog in all things economic. The only ones I heard about crying "It's not fair" were unions that wanted MORE! They got much of what they wanted - not all - or they would cease to exist. Now that the worm has turned - we hear the cry!

[a1gutterman]

Yes, Tim, we are still friends! Good ones at that. Just like most in this Shopsmith Family. Kinda reminds me of Thanksgiving dinner around a great big table. Don't really want to push your buttons, but am going to mention a few things I think I have learned.

Many of the greatest U.S. inventions came from foreign sources. Albert Einstein was born abroad, so were the rocket propulsion guys. When they came over from Nazi Germany, they brought the technology with them. There are quite a few more, but I'm not going to strain my memory.

Let's go to China. When the Mongol hoards invaded China, the Chinese invented the crossbow. Later they invented gun powder, then cannons and guns. Don't know where rifling came from! Whatever kind of Governing body the Chinese have had, the people have remained very resourceful. My Chinese friends, here in the U.S. are very proud of their ancestors and relatives in China. Although they don't agree with Communism, they are proud of their people.

In addressing all of the inexpensive manufacturing from China, we might as well bring up the fruit and vegetables imported from Central and South America. The U.S. used to be able to supply all of those food stuffs. Wonder what happened here?

To be honest, I really dislike the whine- "it's not fair" - when addressing economic stuff. We in the U.S. didn't worry about "what's fair" when we were top dog in all things economic. The only ones I heard about crying "It's not fair" were unions that wanted MORE! They got much of what they wanted - not all - or they would cease to exist. Now that the worm has turned - we hear the cry!

I hear what you are saying. Technologies come from all over the world. The US are knot the only ones to invent. I wood like to reiterate from an earlier post, I am not against any people. Ethnic Chinese that are American citizens, are Americans, as all American citizens are, from where ever in the world they came from. I do knot want to seem picky, but the people that you brought up, the rocket scientists and Mr. Einstein, came to America and became citizens of this great country. I do not consider their work as that from another country.

Your Chinese friends, I assume they are US citizens, have every right to be proud of their ancestors and relatives, but, as I see it, their people are Americans, not Chinese. My ancestors are from a mix of European countries, not the least of which are the Irish. When I think of my people, I think of my fellow Americans, regardless of their ancestory, I do knot think of my people as the Irish.

I am glad that you brought up the produce that we get from South America. In my neck of the woods, much local produce is available for a great portion of the year. There are times when things are out of season, and there are items that just do knot grow here. These items are imported from those South American countries, as they are having summer when we are having winter. But importing/exporting with those countries is a little different then with China. It is "trade". With China, it is a one way street: Their product comes here, our money goes there. And China uses that money to our detriment.

On the thing about the unions, I have previously posted how I feel. And you do not seem to want it discussed. I will leave that as that.

The only item that I am crying "It's not fair" about, is the Most Favored Nation status that our government has given to a country that has publicly declared us their enemy. They are using, and will continue to use, American dollars to build up their war machine and when they are ready, will use it against us. The Chinese have loooong memories. They are still at war with us, albeit, not an visibly active one. To my knowledge, they have knot agreed with our country on a peace plan]edit: BTW, I wood be oakay with [/I]TRADE with China, I just do knot believe we have that.

[dusty]

I'm withdrawing completely from this debate.

We are, in my opinion, not respecting the purpose of this forum. This is, after all, a "Woodworking Forum".

Some may disagree and that is okay but I will not continue doing what I personally believe is inappropriate to do on this forum.

[a1gutterman]

I'm withdrawing completely from this debate.

We are, in my opinion, not respecting the purpose of this forum. This is, after all, a "Woodworking Forum".

Some may disagree and that is okay but I will not continue doing what I personally believe is inappropriate to do on this forum.

Each of us must do what we feel is best for us.

Please see post 7 of this thread: http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=1928 which states in part:

I'm sorry woodburner, but I think the web page reads like this:

COMMUNITY
This is a forum for general discussion not related to woodworking.

I don't know where it would be more appropriate (on this forum) to discuss unions or any other none woodworking subject than right here....
______
Making Sawdust Safely
dusty (aka dustywoodworker)
Tucson, AZ
Last edited by dusty : 06-25-2008 at 03:53 PM.