Sawstop system

[Nick]

You might call it marlarky but I call it brain dead.

With much respect for your experience, Ed, I'd have to argue that what I might be witnessing in the ER was not necessarily people who hurt themselves by being complacent, but people who hurt themselves by being stupid. I would imagine that if there was a SawStop system on every table saw in existence, we'd see some people in the ER who stupidly wanted to test its limits.

In my experience I've observed that if you make a machine idiot-proof, God will invent a better idiot.

With all good wishes,

[paulmcohen]

I love the creativity, I tried a few remote switch ideas but none of them were that creative (or worked safely). Getting to the switch on a 520 with a few extension tables and new Shopsmith infeed table is a real trick.

All the high schools here that still have a wood shop replaced all their saws with SawStop about a year ago, without it the insurance companies would not let students operate the saw. You have to be 18 to operate a table saw in a class unless it has the Sawstop. The same 18 year old rule is true here for college classes as well (but most students are 18).

[Ed in Tampa]

You might call it marlarky but I call it brain dead.

With much respect for your experience, Ed, I'd have to argue that what I might be witnessing in the ER was not necessarily people who hurt themselves by being complacent, but people who hurt themselves by being stupid. I would imagine that if there was a SawStop system on every table saw in existence, we'd see some people in the ER who stupidly wanted to test its limits.

In my experience I've observed that if you make a machine idiot-proof, God will invent a better idiot.

With all good wishes,

Like I said, I call it brain dead. However stupid some people may be I also think as people feel safe around things they tend to let their guard down. Look how many people get hurt on band saws usually by push directly in front of the blade with their thumb.
I know I have left my guard down a few times and luckly something happened that didn't injure me but woke me up to complacency.

As for SawStop in the schools I think this will be a forced by insurance in all schools and like wise I suspect it will soon be forced in all businesses. An insurance company would be crazy not to offer real incentives to encourage shops to install the saw.

I suspect we will soon see a real flood of used cabinet and contractor saws flood the market. That is unless the insurance companies also offer a incentive for the owner to scrap his old saw in effort to get saws without SawStop off the market. I also suspect OSHA may soon take a dim view of using Saws without the Sawstop technology.
Ed

[Ed in Tampa]

Nick
I realized after my last post I may be getting argumentative and I apologize.

Your right people usually get hurt on machines because the had their brain in neutral. Like you I think the SawStop is a good concept and I would like to see the technology available to everyone at a reasonable price and without any government mandates.

Again I didn't mean to push my point and I hope you don't think me a jerk
Ed

[dusty]

We each have our own opinions regarding Sawstop but I am sure that we all share opinions about safety - safety in our shops. I have had one of those close encounters; it was a real eye opener. Thanks to a good surgeon (who just happened to be on call when I needed him) I am still whole.

Would I stop using my Shopsmith because it is unsafe - no way. Yes, I was momemtarily brain dead (hopefully momentary). The kind of error that I made can't be overcome by a fast acting switch. Safety training and awareness is something we all need and I hope have.

Read the manual even the "Cautions and Warnings".

BUT what we don't need is the Government (at any level) controlling how we spend our time and money. Let the free enterprise system work without Government intervention.

What WE THE PEOPLE do need is information. Those who stand to make big, big money by having "Sawstop" mandated into every workshop are NOT going to do their work in public; we, the users of non-sawstop technology, will awaken one day to find a lock on our power switch if we don't do something.

This forum is one place where that could be done. I would like to see an "official thread" where each of us could post reference to what we each see and hear regarding legal actions that are being taken by people like those at "Sawstop". People who have a vested interest in creating laws that we might not want.

At the same time - "SHOP SAFETY" should be a theme that we all incorporate. Let's go Make Saw Dust Safely while we control government interference.

___________________
Making Sawdust Safely

[Ed in Tampa]

What WE THE PEOPLE do need is information. Those who stand to make big, big money by having "Sawstop" mandated into every workshop are NOT going to do their work in public]Make Saw Dust Safely [/B]while we control government interference.

Dusty

I'm not sure what we can do.
I was talking to a person at our local wood working store that said they are selling Sawstops mostly to commerical woodworking and cabinet shops.

You may or may not know the insurance situation in Florida right now is a mess and from what he said the decision was either shutdown because they couldn't afford the insurance or spend $2600 for Sawstop. The salesman claims it was a no brainer and they are getting orders everyday from shop owners that just received their latest insurance bill.

I haven't been able to confirm this with my buddies in the business as they haven't gotten their latest insurance bill. However I was surprised to learn they even knew about Sawstop, usually they don't keep up with new stuff.

As a side note most of the large shops have gone to foreign saws with hugh sliding tables and European safety devices. With the sliding table large enough to fully support a 4x8 and/or 5x5 a sheet and have an 16 foot + swing an operator would almost have to be trying to get hurt, he is that far from the blade. However all my buddies still have a cabinet or contractor saw for the one up smaller jobs.

I will let you know as soon as I can find out for sure what kind of pressure the insurance companies are putting on people.
Ed

[8iowa]

When I first posted this topic I was not aware that Sawstop was using hardball tatics to force their "invention" on the woodworking industry. Any type of government mandate would be frought with negative unintended consequences. Having served two terms in the Florida House of Representatives, I can tell you that I would cringe at the prospect of such a bill. Only the most liberal members would buy into such proposed legislation. (if you live in California or New York you might start worrying.)

My interest in the product was prompted by a professional re-modeler who injured himself on my Shopsmith in the U.P. I was not there at the time but when I returned I could tell that he probably was not using the sawguard. His wound was nasty, but fortunately not an amputation.

Sawstop's method is to constantly measure capacitance at the saw blade, and shut down when this capacitance changes. It actually requires a finger to touch the blade. That's why the shut down has to be so dramatic.

There are other ways to approach the shut down of the saw. An infrared moisture meter could detect the hand or finger in harms way, before blade contact, and then cause DC dynamic braking to be applied to the motor windings. This is existing technology.

In today's trial lawyer intensive environment new high tech safety features are worthwhile to pursue.

[dusty]

I am all for the improvement and incorporation of safety features in our equipment.

I for one have experience in ER due to my own actions in the workshop. I nearly lost a finger.

What will raise the hair on my neck is someone trying to mandate by law that I conduct myself in a manner that they think is appropriate. Create licensing and training requirements as is deemed necessary but don't try to take something away from me so as to create a need that serves their purpose (whoever they are).

The Sawstop is ingenious to say the least; go out and sell it based on its merits.

___________________
Making Sawdust Safely

[genesav]

Dusty--"whoever they are". They are any bureaucrat who thinks they can save us from ourselves.We already have them in out cars,kitchens,shopping carts,humidors and gun safes.Lets hope they stay out of the shop. I'd like to have one place where I can go and enjoy myself without 'help'.
Don't get me wrong,I am in favor of safety devices and procedures, but if something this costly comes to the commercial shops it won't be too long before our home shops are regulated too.

Gene

[dusty]

I agree with you entirely. We need safe systems and if there is one out there that is safer than what we already have I what to see it. But, I what to have a choice as to whether or not it belongs in my shop. I too have responsibility for my safety. My contribution to that (my safety) can't be legislated. I chose Shopsmith because it was the only thing out there that gave me what I wanted and needed. Someone else might have chosen a Grizzely for the very same reasons. If we are all forced to chose "Sawstop" because someone else thought that is what we should have -- well, that is what would cause the hair to stand on my neck.


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Making Sawdust Safely