deleting threads

[jbillups]

I must have missed it, I did try and look it up w/no luck. I'm not all about bashing SS. And if the rules say no sales, thats fine. I just think a PM or just deleting the part about being for sale could have better. I don't want to scrap it, and the money is not an issue. The whole point was, trying to get this SS to someone who would appricate it and make use of it. Not to turn a profit. I have had replied from people asking for parts, and I could make alot of money that way... but I wanted the whole thing to goto one person so with a bit of money and alot of time they could have one.

For me, its alot of work and money to rebuild something when I have all the stand alone tools. Money I could use to get new blades, sharpen jointer knifes, ect.

Allot of you guys are die hard SS fans, and that is cool. I can respect that. Thats why I thought someone one here might find use for it.

Nick has explained some of SS business practices to me, and why they are the way they are. That I can also respect, but do not have to agree with. I even made refrence to thinking about buying a mark 7, so I'm not sure how it was bashing SS.

I still stand by my feeling that deleting the thread w/o tell me it was deleted or why is cowardly and unprofessional. On every other forum I have been on or ran for that matter, a notice was sent to members when they violated a rule. If that would have been done, I would have just said... "my bad, it wont happen again"

With that said, I'm done with this issue. Feel free to bash on me. SS has left a sour taste in my mouth, not the tool its self but the company. They have carried a vintage tool into a new era, and that is very cool. But they left the old time business practices in the dust.

mod pls feel free to delete user jbillups

have a nice day

This is one of those items that I know exists on the forum but is not located where it is not real easy to find when you need to reread it. I know that it is (was) there because I have had it fed back to me before.

Each of us was to have read and agreed to certain policies with regard to the use of the forum. One of those policies was that the forum would not be used by the members for commercials purposes.

This thread indicates that some of us either never read that policy, disregarded what we read, or didn't understand that according to the policy we could not post shop items for sale on the forum.

Yes, you were told - this is not some sort of censorship - it is the rules. Like it or not, Shopsmith is playing by the rules that they set for participation in the forum.

P.S. This is an after thought for Shopsmith to consider. How about adding the "agreement" to the "Quick Links" that are available now.

[cincinnati]

I deal with something like this subject in my day job. It all about you have to be fair to everyone. For example if Shopsmith allowed me to advertise a Markv for sale then they would have to allow Joe from Michigan to advertise his Smith Super-hop for sale. But Joe could actually be The Super-hop company. A competitor to shopsmith. If a business lets the girl scouts sell cookies in front of the store you can not refuse the "mens group of neighborhood destruction" from selling god knows what. It's a legal issue that just snowballs.

[dusty]

This is one of those items that I know exists on the forum but is not located where it is real easy to find when you need to reread it.

I know that it is (was) there because I have had it fed back to me before.

P.S. This is an after thought for Shopsmith to consider. How about adding the "agreement" to the "Quick Links" that are available now.

I guess if you really look for it, it is there. No need to put it in the quick links. It is contained within the policies section.

{quote}
Usage Restrictions
You may access and view the Content (as defined below) appearing on this Web site for personal, non-commercial use only. You may download and/or copy certain portions of the Content for personal, non-commercial use only, provided that you (a) retain all copyright, trademark or other proprietary notices contained on the Content, (b) do not modify or alter the Content in any way and (c) do not make the Content available to any third party. Shopsmith, Inc. reserves complete title and full intellectual property rights in any Content that you download from this Web site.
{quote}


I'm not sure that offering my Shopsmith for sale is accurately characterized as being a commercial endeavor but I am reasonably certain that Shopsmith sees it that way. Furthermore -

According to Wikipedia.org:

Commerce primarily expresses the fairly abstract notions of buying and selling, whereas trade may refer to the exchange of a specific class of goods ("the sugar trade", for example), or to a specific act of exchange (as in "a trade on the stock-exchange").

[jbillups]

well i did say I would accept redbull's does that make it better? lol

[jbillups]

so is it okay for me to tell you guys there is a really sweet mark 7 for sale in reno, nv... on the sac cl. Since they don't sell the mark 7 anymore and I'm not affilated with the seller, just passing on some info. I do think the mark 7 looks really cool. is it cast iron?

[Nick]

"...bashing them on there own site isn't the way to go..."

Actually, we put up with a high degree of bashing provided it's constructive and focused on our tools. No machine is perfect; there is much Shopsmith can learn from an occassional gripe session. If the griper bashes the people at this company, the people on this forum, or casts aspersions on someone's efforts, I will either kill the thread or bash back.

As for Mr. jbillups particular gripe, I am the person responsible for deleting the thread in which he announced he had some equipment for sale. Normally, when I do this, I send the poster a personal note and remind them of the clause on the sign-up page that forbids commercial posts. I neglected to do that this time and I apologize.

Your suggestion that we should permanently post the by-laws to this forum is a good one. Since this is a friendly group, by and large, and we want to keep it that way, I'll be happy to take suggestions as to what should be included in this document. The only top-down rules I insist on is (1) no commercial posts and (2) keep the negatives focused on the machine, not the people.

With all good wishes,

[jbillups]

Nick,
Your post actually makes me feel much better and I thank you for that. I have expressed that I think you are a very talented woodworker, and I hope you know I really mean it. I want to take your tool chest idea, with the SS imbed, and do that with the Bocie-Crane logo... on a out feed table for my table saw. it was very inspiring.

I ment no offence to you, SS or the members of the forum. I have been restoring vintage cast iron tools, much simpler in design. Most of them I can restore by going to the hardware store and local parts gurus. I guess the Mark V is not what I expected.

I did get the SS for free, and was only asking for some of my gas money back. I really wish I had the means to restore it, because its early serial is something I really dig. However, I am in the wrong for not better reading the rules.

I am sure some of you know of the OWWM forums. I have come to enjoy them very much and it is a very diffrent enviroment. I expected this forum to be simlar, however it is very diffrent. And with good reason, its a very diffrent type of forum.

Craftsman to Craftsman I'd like to better our terms.

So I have a proposal.

You have seen the SS I have, and its in no better shape now.
I will give everything I have.

I will give it to a person you pick, 100% free

I also won a vintage manual on ebay, I will give to you or include

But it has to be someone that will restore it for the purpose of its serial number.

in return this is what I ask

I'd like to know about a cast iron SS
is the Mark 7 Cast Iron

is there even one.

if so.

In exchange I ask for a photocopy, pdf or any format of any docs you can get for it. I really really like the look of the mark 7 and want to know more.

I am just asking to trade what I have for your information.

I guess what it comes down to... the mark v is to modern for me.
I'm interested in more vintage and cast iron/steel tools.

I'm sorry I had to cause so many problems to figure it that out.
I just turned 30 and I am building my first shop of my own.
I took things to personal and was to passionate about my feelings.

I understand many of you love your Mark V, and that is great.
The feeling you get from your mark v... thats how my vintage
cast iron tools make me feel

I dont need a SS, I wanted one for a lathe, but now I have a lathe.
But if the right vintage one comes along, and it makes me day dream... then I'd take it on.

When I was growing up, My dad was a superintendant at a 2 miltary bases in the area. Some times he would take me to show me the tools at work. These massive cast iron monsters of tools. I thought they where the coolest thing I'd ever seen.

You want to know the truth?
I am bitter. I feel like as a young man I am getting ripped off from the real America. One where no one would dare buy something that was not made in the USA. Where craftsmanship counted more than sucking your bosses %^&%*&. And most of all... quality tools.

You are SHOPSMITH. One of the only vintage tools left still in business. Take pride! Stand Tall. But look back to your roots. Find that excitement. I know I'm one of the younger ones here... Does anyone remeber when retailers would give you things just to peak your interest. Match Books, Pens, Ect.
You have a dedicated following, embrace them, and I know you do. But dont be a modern Delta or Craftsman. Take it back a bit, do those extra little things. Give your market something once in a while, just to get your name out there, not for profit.

Lets look at it this way, you said you sell your manuals because it helps you track current owners... fair enough. But what are you tracking them for?


This is just a crazy idea... but it seems old school and very cool. Maybe, those who register through a certain form or what not, could get beinfits. Even if it just three new screws for one part, witha nice xmas card... you'd be brining back the american way of business. Or a yearly calendar with 12 diffrent SS's. anything.

Its been almost a month... and I have not even got my catalouge yet. I'm sure 50 years ago this would have been very diffrent.

anyways... I'm done ranting

kindest regards























[quote="Nick"]"...bashing them on there own site isn't the way to go..."

Actually, we put up with a high degree of bashing provided it's constructive and focused on our tools. No machine is perfect]

[RobertTaylor]

i know this was directed at Nick, however if i might throw in my $.02 worth. a mark VII would be a much more complex/difficult restoration than a markV as it has several parts that fail quite easily such as the plastic rack to move the carriage and the speed changer. these parts are no longer available and finding good used ones would be quite difficult. the markVII is not cast iron. i can only think of two parts that are not available for an old greenie shopsmith, one being the two wire power cord and the other is the green touch up paint. these items are availble for the gray machines. jbillups is so infatuated with iron that a shopsmith will never satisfy him. the fact that the aluminum shopsmith lives on should tell him something.

[billmayo]

The Mark VII still has mostly aluminum housings and parts that are not easy to find.

You need to look at the 10E/10ER as the headstock is cast iron and a lot of the other parts are/was cast iron before they started using some aluminum replacements. It is a very heavy machine and makes the best drill press you will every find. Also an excellant lathe. There are a lot of used parts still available and documentation, information and advice is available on other forums.

Nick,

I'd like to know about a cast iron SS
is the Mark 7 Cast Iron

is there even one.

kindest regards

[Nick]

What Bill Mayo said, jb. In my opinion, the Mark VII was a problematic tool; a departure from the Shopsmith's usual "battleship" engineering philosophy. I mean that literally; the original group of design engineers, led by Dr. Hans Goldschmidt, were some of the creative hands and minds that put the Navy's Pacific fleet back in force in a just few short years after the Japanese had reeked havoc in 1941-42. The Shopsmith Mark V was the pinnacle of the engineering philosophy that had begun with the 10E and 10ER. In many ways, it was the PT Boat of the woodworking world -- small, lightweight, durable, and capable.

Because this was a multipurpose tool that had to be converted from mode to mode, reduction of weight was (and still is) an important part of the engineering phiolosophy. The original designers never considered cast iron because that would make the tool exceedingly difficult to change from the horizontal to vertical position. Instead they used cast aluminum and aluminum alloys. They did not subscribe to the popular myth-conception that tools have to be made from dense, heavy materials to be accurate. Although you are fascinated with heavy machinery, I invite you to view Duncan Phyfe's tool chest at the New York Historical Society or just take a look at the reproduction below. In the early 1800s, Phyfe was the first American designer/craftsman to gain international fame. Consider that there is not a single tool in his chest that weighs 1/20th of what a Mark V weighs, and then tell me in all seriousness that weight is a requirement for craftsmanship.

[ATTACH]1748[/ATTACH]

Sometime in the 1980s, there was a cast iron rip-off of the Mark V design produced in Taiwan and called "TotalShop." It's now out of business and parts are scarce to non-existent. Sometimes Mark V parts will work; sometimes not. If you positively have to have the weight, look around on Ebay and Craig's list. You can pick them up for a song. Personally, I wouldn't pay more than "Dixie" or "Remember the Red River Valley." If they're asking for something like "Climbing a Stairway to Heaven," "Heard It Through the Grapevine," or anything from the Beatle's White Album, it's way too much.

As for the offer of your Mark V basket case, I'll take it. There is no such thing as an unimportant act of kindness, so I'll take your kindness and pay it forward. I also believe that there are few things that we can do that will have a more positive impact on our future than to introduce our young people to the joys of creating something with their own hands and minds.

So here's the plan. As soon as Drew, Phil, and I have your machine up and running, I will announce the rules for a woodworking competition for young people that we will conduct right here on this forum. There will be several age categories so the competition isn't weighted toward the older, more-experienced kids. Award for "Best of Show" will be your restored Mark V. If anyone else out there thinks this is a good idea, you're welcome to contribute tools for prizes in the age categories. I will also gladly accept the volunteer services of anyone who wants to help put these donated tools back to rights.

Ping me when you get that Mark V packed up.

With all good wishes,