DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay?

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Tiim2Relax
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay?

Post by Tiim2Relax »

I have the standard 12" filter hood on my dust collector, and it inflates well.
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dusty
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay?

Post by dusty »

It all depends on what one considers a "performance upgrade"

After the "upgrade" the DC3000/6000 is said to be capable of 200CFM per hose. With one hose I supposedly got that with my DC3000 (I don't know because I can't measure that but that was the spec. Why only 200cfm when the nachine is "capable" of 300CFM. Because of limitatuons imposed by the hose (each and every hose attached.

The only improvement I see in Shopsmith's declaration is the the DC6000 is capable of delivering capacity on all 3 hoses simultaneously BUT any one of the ports (by it self) still delivers 200cfm.

Not the performance I thought I was buying even though it is what Shopsmith told me I was going to get. Read and Understand BEFORE you commit.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
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RFGuy
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay?

Post by RFGuy »

dusty wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:37 am It all depends on what one considers a "performance upgrade"

After the "upgrade" the DC3000/6000 is said to be capable of 200CFM per hose. With one hose I supposedly got that with my DC3000 (I don't know because I can't measure that but that was the spec. Why only 200cfm when the nachine is "capable" of 300CFM. Because of limitatuons imposed by the hose (each and every hose attached.

The only improvement I see in Shopsmith's declaration is the the DC6000 is capable of delivering capacity on all 3 hoses simultaneously BUT any one of the ports (by it self) still delivers 200cfm.

Not the performance I thought I was buying even though it is what Shopsmith told me I was going to get. Read and Understand BEFORE you commit.

Dusty,

Thanks and I appreciate all of your efforts last year to try to quantify what you saw with your upgrade. I did find more information that I was looking for. You had attached it in a file on the forum previously, but I am posting it as an inline pic below for reference. As I reported last year, my non-upgraded DC-3300 can't even get 200CFM airflow out of 1 port. The best that I could get is 142.7CFM and that was the best port, i.e. the 3 port manifold is not symmetrical for airflow. With all three ports open it drops into the 70's for each port. Granted my DC-3300 is a couple of decades old, but it has been well cared for. I do believe that most likely the DC-3300 was designed for a max airflow of 330CFM, but not into a single 2.5" manifold port but rather into the 4" inlet of the 3 port manifold. We know that airflow and airspeed are governed by the equation: CFM = fpm * area. So, for a constant airspeed, obviously the aiflow will be reduced by a smaller port. What isn't known in my mind are as follows:
  • What was the original DC-3300 designed to, i.e. what airflow and at what port, size, etc. ?
  • What is the new DC-6000 designed to, i.e. what airflow and at what port size, etc. ?
  • Is the DC-3300 conversion kit EXACTLY identical to the new DC-6000 ?
Since I do NOT get anywhere near the 300CFM out of my old DC-3300 that Shopsmith claims, I really don't know how to interpret Jim's performance estimates in the pic below. I have no doubt that the DC-6000 and the DC-3300->DC-6000 conversion kit most probably perform better than the original DC-3300. I would just like to know how much better? If it is only a 10% improvement, then why bother to upgrade? Jim is reporting that the DC-6000 will maintain 200CFM into each port with all 3 ports open, which if true means that it is a 33% improvement (1 port) compared to what I have today. I question his data because why doesn't 1 port open on the DC-6000 yield much more than 200CFM??? The airspeed will hit a limit inside the blower so I don't expect 600CFM out of 1 2.5" port, but it really should be more than 200CFM IMHO. This is what I question, i.e. why there isn't any taper/drop off in performance between 1 port open, 2 port open, 3 port open for the DC-6000 when compared to the original DC-3300?

All of this is why I still question the upgrade and what its actual performance is. I believe Jim is quoting design targets below and his DC-3300 vs. DC-6000 comparison makes no sense to me. Had I known the actual performance numbers last year I might have upgraded as well. Though after seeing all of the trouble you had with your upgrade not fitting right, I am glad that I didn't. I sincerely hope these assembly issues have been resolved now for those who have purchased this upgrade recently.

viewtopic.php?p=285543#p285543
viewtopic.php?p=285257#p285257
DC_3300_6000_airflow.jpg
DC_3300_6000_airflow.jpg (153.95 KiB) Viewed 1550 times
📶RF Guy

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dusty
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay?

Post by dusty »

As I read Jim's comments, the DC3000 or DC6000 cfm is limited by the hose to approximately 200cfm and I read this to mean with whatever manifold hose combination.

Does this mean I could have 600cfm with the right manifold and hose -- I don't know.
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RFGuy
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay?

Post by RFGuy »

dusty wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:37 am As I read Jim's comments, the DC3000 or DC6000 cfm is limited by the hose to approximately 200cfm and I read this to mean with whatever manifold hose combination.

Does this mean I could have 600cfm with the right manifold and hose -- I don't know.
Dusty,

Yeah, I agree that the hose, the manifold and anything else in between the blower fan and the tool will restrict airflow. Jim is suggesting that a 2.5" port is limited to 200CFM, but the only thing limiting it is the max airspeed that the blower fan can produce. There is a limit based on physics, but I don't know that it is 200CFM for a 2.5" port with this particular blower fan. This will vary from one blower to another as well, e.g. you can have a different impeller design and increase the ariflow. So, is it 200CFM because that is what the blower fan in the DC-3300 was designed to? IF so, then mine falls far short of this. It seems like an awful big coincidence that for 1 port only that both the DC-3300 (old) and the new DC-6000 have identical airflow numbers (according to Jim). Again I just think we (forum members) are making assumptions and interpretations about what Jim said and we don't really know what the DC-6000 or the upgrade are capable of. Not trying to rehash all of the discussions from last year again, but just pointing this out. Until I purchase the upgrade myself and take actual measurements to compare before and after, I don't think we will ever know for sure (unless someone else has an anemometer and are willing to do the tests). However, to answer your last question...yes, I suspect that you could get more airflow out of your upgraded DC-3300 with the right combination of hoses and manifold. I have done quite a bit of manifold vs. no manifold tests on my DC-3300 in the past and was surprised how much more airflow you can get without it. Also, I was pleasantly surprised that the Oneida hoses I bought had more airflow compared to a similar length Shopsmith hose.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
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jsburger
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay?

Post by jsburger »

I believe most companies (SS also???) rate their dust collector CFM wit no filter in place. It seems to me that is the only way to get meaningful/consistent numbers for comparison purposes. The filter restricts the air flow by different amounts depending on the type of filter. Take the SS for instance. A 12" filter hood will let less air flow than a 42" filter hood. A new 12" filter hood will have more air flow than a 12" filter hood that has been used fore a year and never cleaned.

Also as RFGuy noted the hose makes a difference. So unless everyone here does their test with no filter installed and the exact same brand and length of hose, or no hose, the numbers are meaningless for comparison.
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lub1955
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay? For Me No!

Post by lub1955 »

I read a bunch of post for this upgrade. I did find that running two hoses was better with the upgrade and I thought the upgrade would work for me. But since I do more turning with my Shopsmith I found that the new motor housing is set up like some of the other dust collection system the I sold and used at one of the big Woodworking stores. I found that with the new upgrade the inlet has a corse metal grid (not foreseen) in front of its opening. The old motor housing did not and passed the curly chips with no problem. The new upgraded housing with this grid plugged in less than 5 second. Not really unexpected since others setups with this type of set up did the same thing when I used them at the woodworking store I worked at. I did not want to ad a cyclone cylinder because I wanted less of a foot print for my smaller shop. So I returned the upgrade to Shopsmith for a refund. I think this unit would work just fine for dust but adding a cyclone I thought I would not get as good of performance thus the return. I will save up and buy something a a few steps up above this upgrade.
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay? For Me No!

Post by RFGuy »

lub1955 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:45 am I read a bunch of post for this upgrade. I did find that running two hoses was better with the upgrade and I thought the upgrade would work for me. But since I do more turning with my Shopsmith I found that the new motor housing is set up like some of the other dust collection system the I sold and used at one of the big Woodworking stores. I found that with the new upgrade the inlet has a corse metal grid (not foreseen) in front of its opening. The old motor housing did not and passed the curly chips with no problem. The new upgraded housing with this grid plugged in less than 5 second. Not really unexpected since others setups with this type of set up did the same thing when I used them at the woodworking store I worked at. I did not want to ad a cyclone cylinder because I wanted less of a foot print for my smaller shop. So I returned the upgrade to Shopsmith for a refund. I think this unit would work just fine for dust but adding a cyclone I thought I would not get as good of performance thus the return. I will save up and buy something a a few steps up above this upgrade.
Thanks. Did you see this thread where I summarized the measured airflow that Dusty got with the upgrade compared to my non-upgraded DC-3300? The thread is linked below and definitely worth a look if you are interested. Yeah, the upgrade is an improvement, but still perhaps NOT enough of an improvement that you can put a cyclone in front of it without significantly decreasing airflow with it. Also, there is still a major drop in airflow when more than 1 port is open. I think you made the right choice and glad to hear Shopsmith took it back. Thanks for your feedback.

viewtopic.php?p=304080#p304080
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
DLB
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay? For Me No!

Post by DLB »

lub1955 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:45 am ...I found that with the new upgrade the inlet has a corse metal grid (not foreseen) in front of its opening. The old motor housing did not and passed the curly chips with no problem...

I had a similar experience, though admittedly I was using the DC to vacuum and picked up a couple of large leaves. This would have worked on a DC-3300. Makes me wonder if the 'intake grate' function is deliberate or is there for reinforcement that could be done externally. This portion of the duct is metal.

I will save up and buy something a a few steps up above this upgrade.
Good dust collection is pricey, but worth it to many. I have not seen a great cost effective solution for the lathe.
- David
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jsburger
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Re: DC-3300 to DC-6000 upgrade: Yea or Nay? For Me No!

Post by jsburger »

DLB wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:16 pm
lub1955 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:45 am ...I found that with the new upgrade the inlet has a corse metal grid (not foreseen) in front of its opening. The old motor housing did not and passed the curly chips with no problem...

I had a similar experience, though admittedly I was using the DC to vacuum and picked up a couple of large leaves. This would have worked on a DC-3300. Makes me wonder if the 'intake grate' function is deliberate or is there for reinforcement that could be done externally. This portion of the duct is metal.

I will save up and buy something a a few steps up above this upgrade.
Good dust collection is pricey, but worth it to many. I have not seen a great cost effective solution for the lathe.
- David
I would think the grate is deliberate to protect the impeller from damage. The DC3300 did not have one and as a result the impeller is one of the most purchased (according to SS) replacement parts. Of course the result is easier clogging as stated.
John & Mary Burger
Eagle's Lair Woodshop
Hooper, UT
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