PowerPro idler shaft misalignment

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wurlitzerwilly
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Re: PowerPro idler shaft misalignment

Post by wurlitzerwilly »

edma194 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:31 pm That's interesting. According to the sticker this was a Mark 7 not an upgrade, but it's possible they ran out of the red switches for a little while or it got switched for any number of reasons. I'm about to try swapping parts between my two PowerPro headstocks to isolate the problem. More on that later.
I still have my original red switch, with the removal lever. When they supplied the black switch, I presumed that the original switch was either not man enough for the current involved or it was just inappropriate because for safety reasons it would not be a good idea to remove the red lever in the 'on' position in case of a controller malfunction.
edma194
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Re: PowerPro idler shaft misalignment

Post by edma194 »

Finally made my way through a logjam of unfinished tasks and made it all the way up the list to this issue. Had to set up to swap components between the PowerPro headstocks on my drill press and a shorty with the 520 headstock put together for this purpose.

The drill press headstock is a PP self install I performed a couple of years ago. The headstock on the shorty came from the 520 I purchased used.

Test 1: Try 520 motor on drill press. The problem was unlikely to be motor related but testing the motors was the easiest step. I had some trepidation before loosening the screws on the drill press motor mounts. I hadn't touched them since finishing the install and getting them tightened up and it took some force to get them all the way in. I was worried the tightness was due to cross threading but after a snap as each screw loosened they all came out very easily. The motor mount screws were very tight installing the 520 motor.

With the 520 motor installed on the drill press a 12" sanding disk was tested at 500, 950, 1350, 2000, and 3450 RPM. Each run was quick, 10 seconds after coming up to speed. No indication of the banging problem. Good news, unlikely to be a problem with the motor.

Test 2: Try the drill press motor in the 520. Finding another problem, the power cord is routed through the headstock incorrectly taking up the limited space needed for the motor wiring. Wasn't easy to get the wires out of the way of the fan for the test.

With the drill press motor installed in the 520 the 12" sanding disk was tested at 500, 950, and 1350 RPM. The banging problem was evident at 1350 RPM. More good news, the motor doesn't seem to be part of the problem, and it is the most expensive PP component.

Test 3: Try the drill press power supply in the 520, with the 520 motor and 520 control panel. This was an important test because the power supply was suspect. It had been treated badly, heat sink fins were bent, maybe dropped, maybe they tried to get it out of the machine with taking the headstock off the way tubes. The security sticker has been removed, hope they didn't do anything to it. One thing I wanted to take care of were the sheet metal screws holding the power supply to the headstock casting. They stuck out with little points and thread that could snag on the wiring. The 2 screws on the front of the headstock are a serious problem and I put a couple of plastic doohickeys on them to cover the points and the threads. The other 2 on the side of the headstock aren't normally close to any wires but I did the same thing on those just in case of future modifications.

With the drill press power supply installed in the 520, with the 520 motor, and 520 control panel the 12" sanding disk was tested at 500, 950, 1350, 2000, and 3450 RPM. There was no indication of a banging problem. This seems to show the power supply is the problem. It's the second most expensive PP component out of just 3, and that's pretty expensive.

I still have to test the 520 power supply in the drill press. Without the 12" sanding disk installed there had been no indication of a problem. I had already tried a drill chuck with pretty heavy 5/8" bit installed and run up to pretty high speed. So it's possible the faulty power supply will work without problems in the drill press and the good one in the 520 for more general usage. That would be a great outcome for me.
Ed from Rhode Island

510 PowerPro Double Tilt:Greenie PowerPro Drill Press:500 Sanding Shorty w/Belt&Strip Sanders
Super Sawsmith 2000:Scroll Saw w/Stand:Joint-Matic:Power Station:Power Stand:Bandsaw:Joiner:Jigsaw
1961 Goldie:1960 Sawsmith RAS:10ER
edma194
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Re: PowerPro idler shaft misalignment

Post by edma194 »

DLB wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 1:09 pm A data point to get while you are swapping - Does it make the abnormal 'odd clicking sound' with the motor belt off? Does it make it at one, some, or all speeds? If it does it with the belt off, that will make the other swapping go easier and faster, just run the motor un-mounted. Having been down that road, it is fairly easy but kind of tedious to swap those parts. Per the DIY manual, and I'm paraphrasing, its okay to run the system outside of the headstock. I did it that way too, but I did add a ground jumper between the motor and power supply when I ran it on a bench since the power supply chassis was ungrounded otherwise.

Just checked to make sure I'm up to date... My Power Supply has been on order since late March. Several weeks ago I ordered something else and asked them to put it on the same order to save shipping and was told it could be months to get the power supply.

- David
I checked for the clicking with the motor belt off earlier and I think again when on the phone with Shopsmith. I have run the components out of the headstock but in this case the problem happened while running with a sanding disk mounted so I had to go through the full set of swaps. With the problem narrowed down to the power supply I had to test out the problem power supply in the drill press. I don't know if the problem will happen in ordinary drilling operations, with a drill chuck or Nova chuck mounted it doesn't happen. Perhaps tough drilling or shaping operations can make it happen some day.

So at the moment I don't have to rush to replace this expensive power supply. I'll keep an eye on it and look for problems. I haven't run it for very long at one shot so I'll be checking for overheating and other problems that could explain how this became a problem in the first place.

A couple of notes:
The mounting screws can be very tight. The motor has to be adjusted so that the mounts line up with the holes in the headstock correctly. The headstock is flexible and the shape contorts around the motor mounting blocks. I found the trick to getting them aligned after mounting the belt was to leave the top screws loose and get the middle screw on each side positioned and tightened properly. Then slowly tighten the top and bottom screws while pushing on the motor to get them each in place. Each of the screws should be able to loosen and tighten without excessive force at that point.

Mounting the motor for what should have been the last time I began to cross thread one of the holes in the mounting block. I stopped right away, pulled the motor, removed the mounting block and chased out the threads with one of the screws from the back side. I only lost one thread so I think it is strong enough but I plan to replace the mounting block. Looks like they come in pairs. But I'm going to ask about the new style of mounting block only seen in photos so far. I think this will be a better way to mount the motor with the screws further up on the casting than they are now.
Ed from Rhode Island

510 PowerPro Double Tilt:Greenie PowerPro Drill Press:500 Sanding Shorty w/Belt&Strip Sanders
Super Sawsmith 2000:Scroll Saw w/Stand:Joint-Matic:Power Station:Power Stand:Bandsaw:Joiner:Jigsaw
1961 Goldie:1960 Sawsmith RAS:10ER
DLB
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Location: Joshua Texas

Re: PowerPro idler shaft misalignment

Post by DLB »

edma194 wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:28 am ...I checked for the clicking with the motor belt off earlier and I think again when on the phone with Shopsmith. I have run the components out of the headstock but in this case the problem happened while running with a sanding disk mounted so I had to go through the full set of swaps. With the problem narrowed down to the power supply I had to test out the problem power supply in the drill press. I don't know if the problem will happen in ordinary drilling operations, with a drill chuck or Nova chuck mounted it doesn't happen. Perhaps tough drilling or shaping operations can make it happen some day.

So at the moment I don't have to rush to replace this expensive power supply. I'll keep an eye on it and look for problems. I haven't run it for very long at one shot so I'll be checking for overheating and other problems that could explain how this became a problem in the first place.

A good thing. Less expense, plus there is no rushing available. My Control Unit, aka Power Supply, remains on order since March. I'm told the repair route is faster but I ultimately want to end up with a spare.

...
Mounting the motor for what should have been the last time I began to cross thread one of the holes in the mounting block. I stopped right away, pulled the motor, removed the mounting block and chased out the threads with one of the screws from the back side. I only lost one thread so I think it is strong enough but I plan to replace the mounting block. Looks like they come in pairs. But I'm going to ask about the new style of mounting block only seen in photos so far. I think this will be a better way to mount the motor with the screws further up on the casting than they are now.
One option I considered when thinking about the new motor mounts was to add two screws per side to install after the motor pan. Basically drill through both the motor pan and headstock, threaded into the motor mounts. Therefore no countersink in already thin material, just reinforcement. I decided, for now, it's not needed. While it might work for you, I personally would not worry about losing one thread. A helicoil repair also seems viable, but do keep in mind that these are metric thread patterns.

Please report back any findings on whether the 'new motor mount' is compatible with the 'classic' motor. I'm thinking it will not be, but there is definitely not enough detail in the pics we've seen to determine this.

- David
edma194
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Re: PowerPro idler shaft misalignment

Post by edma194 »

DLB wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:44 am Please report back any findings on whether the 'new motor mount' is compatible with the 'classic' motor. I'm thinking it will not be, but there is definitely not enough detail in the pics we've seen to determine this.
I received word from Shopsmith today concerning the new motor mounts:
Shopsmith wrote: Hello,
The new motor mounts are used with the new motor only
The new motor mounts do not work on the old motor
Their attachment methods are different from motor to motor
They are not interchangable.
Thank you,
Shopsmith
I want to find out more about these new motors. Since it's a 2-part mounting block I'm not sure why they can't make an adapter for different motors unless it was a radically different mounting system. Maybe we can get the Nerdery guy to open his up and take some pictures.
DLB wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:44 am One option I considered when thinking about the new motor mounts was to add two screws per side to install after the motor pan. Basically drill through both the motor pan and headstock, threaded into the motor mounts. Therefore no countersink in already thin material, just reinforcement. I decided, for now, it's not needed. While it might work for you, I personally would not worry about losing one thread. A helicoil repair also seems viable, but do keep in mind that these are metric thread patterns.
I don't think one thread is a real problem, but I want a clean motor mount anyway. The new type won't work but I think something could be customized to extend the shape the original motor mount so additional screws can be added higher up through the casting. Your idea of screws mounted through the motor pan is a good one. It would have been better to use cap screws and not countersink the original holes. Holes can be cut in the motor pan for clearance around the screw cap. More screws wouldn't hurt.

So I'll be thinking about these modifications. Your basic idea of adding additional support screws through the motor pan is very practical, and since I'll be ordering a pair of mounting blocks I'll have the old ones to try it out on.
Ed from Rhode Island

510 PowerPro Double Tilt:Greenie PowerPro Drill Press:500 Sanding Shorty w/Belt&Strip Sanders
Super Sawsmith 2000:Scroll Saw w/Stand:Joint-Matic:Power Station:Power Stand:Bandsaw:Joiner:Jigsaw
1961 Goldie:1960 Sawsmith RAS:10ER
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