Small Pieces - Kickback

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RFGuy
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by RFGuy »

Dean,

Since you are new to the tablesaw, I would just say to be careful and take your time. You should know that making these small cutoffs as I believe you are doing is one of the more dangerous tasks at a tablesaw IMHO. A crosscut sled, particularly one with zero clearance would be ideal to make these cuts, but not a complete necessity. Below is a YT video showing one possible way to make these small cuts and how to do them safely. I skimmed the video and didn't watch every second of it, so if someone else finds something wrong in it please let me know. There are other ways to do it as well, e.g. Ed suggested setting up a stop block (in front of the sawblade) on the fence, then using this with the miter gauge to make the cut. The benefit of this method is that the stop block just sets your cut size and is out of the way when the board contacts the sawblade (because it is well in front of the sawblade and not used during the cut). Yeah, opinions vary on use of the above table saw guard or not. Some experienced woodworkers almost never use this guard and others wouldn't make a cut without it. In my opinion, I wouldn't make this kind of cut with the above table saw guard in place because it is more likely to trap the cutoff near the blade causing a kickback. Sure the piece is small, but when it comes into contact with the sawblade it will be shot at you with incredible speed. It may not hurt too bad if it gets you in the stomach or chest, but it could cause major eye damage, etc. I have only had a couple of kickbacks in many years of using my tablesaw and I hope I NEVER have another one again. This is why I suggested the Jessem guides to think about for rip cutting. I am much more confident and feel more in control when ripping on my Mark V because of the Jessem guides which is why I go out of my way to recommend them to anyone that will listen. Make sure you have the lower saw guard (below table) in place all the time. If your Mark V didn't come with it then buy one. Owners have unfortunately hurt their hands and even lost fingers in accidentally reaching under the table, e.g. to change speed or hit the power switch when the blade is spinning. So, please always make sure the lower saw guard is installed. Another option to make these kinds of cuts is with a chop saw (miter saw). It is an additional expense but if you are making a lot of these you may want to do all of your crosscuts on the miter saw and keep the tablesaw of the Mark V for ripping only. This is what I do most of the time in my shop. Lastly, please know that everyone here just wants you to be safe, but we also want you to enjoy using your Shopsmith and other woodworking equipment for a long, long time. Thus all of this is meant as constructive, positive feedback to help you on your journey. I hope everyone's advice has been helpful and I appreciate Steve taking the time to write such a thorough post to you. The only caveat I want to point out with what Steve said is for you to understand that YT is a great place to learn many skills, especially woodworking. However, it is possible to find yahoos on there that don't know what they are doing, so unfortunately you have to be able to sort out what is good advice from bad advice on YT. I don't know how many YT woodworkers I have seen that post videos of jointing a board and pushing it with their bare hands across the jointer. This should NEVER be done IMHO and risks losing fingers or worse. Always use push blocks/sticks when you can. Sometimes an experienced woodworker will not use these for a particular cut because they are over confident and for example the guard/push block gets in the way for filming. Not trying to be the safety police, but use your own judgement and know that YT has more than a few "bad" woodworking videos so keep that in mind.

P.S. I haven't done a lot of raw log crosscuts, so take this with a grain of salt. I think you might want to make a small crosscut sled just for this and design it so that you can readily clamp the log to it. Logs being round makes them more prone to spinning and getting out of control on you during the cut. This coupled with the ever changing grain direction (around the circumference) during the through cut means it could be a live wire. I am sure someone else on the forum has more experience with log cutting and might give their feedback here.

📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
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dino9832
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by dino9832 »

RFGuy, thanks for the advice. Everyone has been real helpful. I've been digesting all the advice and videos. Eventually, a plan will come together.

I've been going over the lessons in the manual. There's an abundance of good info in there. I also have the Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone book on order. My last order came with the 5 piece safety kit, so that helps also.

Great video on cutting small pieces. It CAN be done. Maybe a mesquite log isn't the place to start, but I'll work my way up with some practice and learning.

By the way, anyone know what this guard is for? It came with the parts I got on my used Shopsmith.
IMG_20220707_211825676.jpg
IMG_20220707_211825676.jpg (348.37 KiB) Viewed 1423 times
Dean
Mark V 505
garys
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by garys »

I made up a crosscut sled for cutting small pieces. For me, it works so much better for that job. The sled keeps the small pieces contained during cutting.
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chapmanruss
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by chapmanruss »

Dean,

The picture you posted above is an Upper Saw Guard (stating the obvious here) but for what saw. Not a Shopsmith one. Many times non-Shopsmith parts get mixed in when you buy a used Shopsmith tool. A Mark V I bought a few years ago has a Craftsman Table Saw Guard with it which I recognized since I have one. The seller had a Craftsman Table Saw sitting across the room and I had him keep it for the correct tool.

You said your Mark V has 2 Extension tables but no connector tubes. Extension tables have the legs/posts to attach them to the bench on either end. Floating tables are the same as the extension table without any legs/posts or the mounting hardware for them and simply float on the connector tubes. You can easily add floating tables, connector tubes and adjustable legs to make your Mark V a 510 and expand its table capabilities.

You mentioned a Bandsaw and that would be a much better choice for cutting thin cutoffs. Enough about that since I believe you were simply trying out making cuts with your new-to-you tool.

Glad to hear you are getting the book Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone. It is a great reference for using the Shopsmith and expands on the information in the Owner's Manual and the Self Study Course which I also recommend getting if you don't already have them. The Owner's Manual is a must.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E's S/N's 1076 & 1077 oldest ones I have restored. Mark 2 S/N 85959 restored. Others to be restored.
dino9832
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by dino9832 »

A crosscut sled sounds like an excellent idea. RFGuy had shared a video of one. It would give the workpiece and cutoff just a bit of nudge to clear the guard. Flipping the guard up is another approach mentioned. But, also mentioned was to gain a bit more experience. All very good suggestions.
More experience.
Flipping up guard.
Using a sled.

You are so correct chapmanruss. New blade, new (to me) machine. Something was going to get cut! Thank God it wasn't my fingers. ;)

I have a list of parts on my wish list. I'm still working on the specifics. I'm also debating on 4 27" tubes or the 5' set of tubes.

514529 Telescoping Leg ... $29.72
521942 5-Ft Connector Tubes Pair???
555501 Blank Saw Insert For Models 505, 510, 520/Pro Fence
514520 Adjustable Fitting for Telescoping ... $47.43
514439 Extension Tube - 27" connector tube ... $14.11
556223 Non-Through Riving Knife ... $29.89
555645 Bandsaw Fence (item A) ... $127.49
Dean
Mark V 505
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chapmanruss
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by chapmanruss »

I have both the 27" and 5' connector tubes which are great. Last week cutting some wood I used both lengths during different setups. Having both a Mark 7 and Mark V 520 with a total of three Extension Tables and four Floating Tables with a bunch of connector tubes and adjustable legs gives me a lot of flexibility.

I have the Bandsaw Fence on my Bandsaw with the aluminum table. For my older Bandsaw (1956) with the cast iron table I would use the miter.

The blank saw inserts can be homemade.
Russ

Mark V completely upgraded to Mark 7
Mark V 520
All SPT's & 2 Power Stations
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ metal ends & retractable casters.
Has Speed Changer, 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E's S/N's 1076 & 1077 oldest ones I have restored. Mark 2 S/N 85959 restored. Others to be restored.
dino9832
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by dino9832 »

chapmanruss wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:45 pm ...The blank saw inserts can be homemade....
Thanks,
I was wondering if both connector tube lengths wouldn't be redundant. But, I could see the merit in both.
The saw inserts seem easy enough once you know what you're doing. I saw how rounding the corners could be done with the miter and rotating it against the sanding disc.
Dean
Mark V 505
RFGuy
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by RFGuy »

dino9832 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:14 pm Thanks,
I was wondering if both connector tube lengths wouldn't be redundant. But, I could see the merit in both.
The saw inserts seem easy enough once you know what you're doing. I saw how rounding the corners could be done with the miter and rotating it against the sanding disc.
Dean,

I have both, but honestly I don't use the 5' ones as much as I thought I would. I have a small shop and only one Mark V so I have to breakdown and reconfigure often, so I can't dedicate one machine to just tablesaw as an example. IF I did, I would surely keep one setup with floating and aux tables with the 5' connector tubes all the time. It is a very stable platform with them, i.e. limited main table flex. I stopped doing plywood on my Mark V because I bought a tracksaw and much prefer it for breaking down and sizing all of my plywood work. I highly recommend a tracksaw if you do a lot of sheet goods. Some owners use their Mark V for breaking down 4'x8' sheets of plywood but I don't enjoy doing this on a Mark V. Tracksaw is much safer IMHO. Opinions vary on this, as they should, because everyone has different tools in their shops and different styles/applications of woodworking. I am sure others will chime in and give their opinion on this. While I really like the 5' connector tubes, I just don't use them as much as I would like because of the above...
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
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db5
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by db5 »

Question: What are the advantages/disadvantages of using a splitter ZCI vs. a riving knife?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzdF-bLXc8Q&t=0s
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JPG
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Re: Small Pieces - Kickback

Post by JPG »

Best advice given - Think through the operation before proceeding!!

Assume the worst WILL happen and adjust procedure to minimize the likelihood of it occurring.

THINK
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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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