Electrical issue, no neutral wire for Kasa

[reible]

So I have a hall way light with switches on each end. Right now I have X10 switches but doing away with X10 in favor of Alexa and Kasa.

House was built around 1980, so "standards" of that era wiring wise.

The "main" box has line and travels 1 & 2 but no neutral. The satellite box has the two travels and load. Again no neutral.

Kasa switches require that the main box have a neutral wire.

The hall light is between the switches and I would assume it has a neutral wire.

So electrical code wise would it be acceptable to run a neutral wire from the light fixture to the main switch box?

Conduit appears to be 3/4" and contains the 3 wires, line and 2 travels. Shouldn't be to hard to run a single wire the 12' or so, fixture to switch box.

It would appear that all boxes now have to have a neutral wire but this house is pre that requirement apparently.

Ed

[beeg]

Does the the conduit act as a neutral? I wood think that wood be against code.

[JPG]

I am guessing two 3w cables run from each switch to the light box(or a junction box) where they are connected to the light socket and the supply line including the neutral.

I think installing the "kasa" switch at the light junction box is needed. Saying that knowing nothing about the kasa switch which I assume includes a remote switching function.

However that would mean no ability to turn the light on when the kasa switch is 'off'. Not a very acceptable result.

[JPG]

P.S. Is a 4 way switch version available?

[DLB]

Couple of alternative thoughts:
Can you use a 'smart fixture' or smart bulbs as an alternative to the Kasa switches?
Can you use another brand of switches that don't require Neutral? These seem to be readily available, I don't know how they compare.

One reason for asking the above: As a generalization when you modify a circuit you have to bring it up to current code. So if I, in Texas, wanted to do what you want to do, I expect that I would also have to add a ground to each switch box and an AFCI to the entire circuit. Potentially also a GFCI depending on where the rest of the circuit ran. None of which is that hard, but my material costs just shot up so I'd probably favor not modifying the circuit if practical.

As a layman with some knowledge in the field, I'm not comfortable interpreting code for others. It is different everywhere, mainly because the NEC changes significantly from one version to the next but which version is actually in play is based on state and sometimes local law. Plus local jurisdictions sometimes go above and beyond whichever NEC version applies in the state. For example in Texas we are on the 2020 NEC by law, so that's the minimum throughout the state. Illinois is on the 2008 version, five revisions back, but local jurisdictions can, and I would guess do, set their own standards. Your local code may or may not be vastly different than here. On top of that, none of the last four houses I've had any involvement in were correctly wired to the code of the day so I would encourage you to also confirm all assumptions if you rewire the circuit. All that said, I think you can use the neutral from the fixture and run in the existing conduit. But we don't use much conduit in houses here, I would probably want to pull the existing wire and then either rerun it with the neutral and ground or replace it with new.

War story - One of the houses I mentioned not being wired correctly - I told a friend I'd replace a switch for her on a circuit like yours. Killed the breaker, popped the cover, and found that someone had wired it with two conductor Romex and used the bare ground as the third conductor for one of the travelers. I had to tell her I couldn't replace the switch or even turn the breaker back on without rewiring the circuit. It had probably been working fine for 40 years, but an uninsulated switched hot??? Pretty sure that's never been okay.

- David

[reible]

Let me address the problem with other switches that don't require the neutral wire, they are either of two name brands(that I know of) and would require the addition of a controller/interface module to work with Alexa. Also yet another app to interface with and if controlling from off premises the use of the kasa app and then the other brand....... not convenient. (They are also more expensive.) I will give this a fresh look since I have not kept up on recent developments.

The fixture uses the candelabra bulbs and I'm not sure that kasa makes them or if a compatible version exists, it would also require multiple bulbs. I could change to a different fixture that accepts the more standard bulbs. I do have some such bulbs in such things as closet lighting and fan lights. I will check on what other bulbs exist but with the bulbs you run the chance that someone will use the light switch to turn them off and then they can't respond to external requests.

The whole house uses conduit.

As far as I know they have not released a 4-way switch. If they do I have an application where I could use one.

I wish I had a wiring diagram of the house. As of now having opened the two switch boxes I can identify the wires but how they interconnect is a mystery as well as the source of the line wire. I think I will open the ceiling fixture to see what wires I can identify there. I will also do some research on other brands not requiring the neutral wire and what would be required to do the interface.

Have to see what seems the best way to continue, even if it is putting back the original mechanical switches.

Ed

[beeg]

=reible post_id=299751 time=1657640492 user_id=442

I wish I had a wiring diagram of the house.
Ed

Best ya can do is, number each breaker,draw a map of the houses outlets and lights. Turn off a circuit breaker, check EACH outlet and light for power. The dead ones are on that breaker. Mark the maps power source with number. Go done the line and repeat.

[reible]

We are up and running. Checked the box where the light is located and the line wire and travelers that go to the switch were easy to find. Pulled them from the switch box and when I put them back, low and behold there was a white wire there in the box. I must have missed it some how.

So life is good and in control again.

Ed