PowerPro Thermal Performance

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RFGuy
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by RFGuy »

David, Ed,

So, I guess you guys aren't a fan (pun intended) of Geoff's solution? It doesn't get in the way of the quill from what I can tell and the filters mount below the headstock. It is pretty straightforward, low tech but seems to be very effective. Have you tried reaching out to him to see if he has any issues with it??? Might be worth doing before re-inventing the wheel.

viewtopic.php?p=266628#p266628
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
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edma194
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by edma194 »

I don't do Facebook but the picture there describes it. I think that hose into the side port is a little small. The motor pan probably is the best inlet location. I think a 4" fan can hang directly under it and provide a ton of cooling and positive pressure to keep sawdust out. Blowing air directly on the motor should reduce heat tremendously.

I'm looking for ideas to turn on that blower in the PowerPro when the motor is running if anyone has ideas. The PowerPro is normally drawing minimal current until the motor starts so simply detecting any current usage on the line won't work.
Ed from Rhode Island

510 PowerPro Double Tilt:Greenie PowerPro Drill Press:500 Sanding Shorty w/Belt&Strip Sanders
Super Sawsmith 2000:Scroll Saw w/Stand:Joint-Matic:Power Station:Power Stand:Bandsaw:Joiner:Jigsaw
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DLB
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by DLB »

RFGuy wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:39 am David, Ed,

So, I guess you guys aren't a fan (pun intended) of Geoff's solution? It doesn't get in the way of the quill from what I can tell and the filters mount below the headstock. It is pretty straightforward, low tech but seems to be very effective. Have you tried reaching out to him to see if he has any issues with it??? Might be worth doing before re-inventing the wheel.
I like his solution to an extent. If I used it, I would move the location of the hose. I suspect that the location shown will create some turbulence inside the headstock as it conflicts with the airflow from the TEFC fan. Also, if you've seen pictures with the inspection plate open, it is blowing directly onto the side of the electronics module as opposed to across the heat sink. In this way, I see it as kind of a brute force solution with too much emphasis on not modifying other parts of the headstock. Intending primarily to replace hot air inside the headstock with cooler air. But it would be relatively easy to adapt to where I think the air is needed, in close proximity to the TEFC fan inlet. But if I can duct the air flow the way I want it, giving clean ambient temperature air to the TEFC fan intake, I'm not convinced I would also need a supplemental fan. At least at moderate to high speeds, the TEFC fan moves a lot of air.

Like you, I'm a fan of PowerPro 2.0. Not to be confused with whatever we're calling headstocks like Tom's that have a new motor along with unknown other changes. I'd like to realize more of the potential of this motor system.

- David
RFGuy
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by RFGuy »

edma194 wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:12 pm I don't do Facebook but the picture there describes it. I think that hose into the side port is a little small. The motor pan probably is the best inlet location. I think a 4" fan can hang directly under it and provide a ton of cooling and positive pressure to keep sawdust out. Blowing air directly on the motor should reduce heat tremendously.

I'm looking for ideas to turn on that blower in the PowerPro when the motor is running if anyone has ideas. The PowerPro is normally drawing minimal current until the motor starts so simply detecting any current usage on the line won't work.
Ed,

I am with you on not liking FB and I haven't been on there in a while. To help better see what Geoff has done, I copied his pics and text description from his FB post. I believe he posted at least twice on there about his two designs. IF Geoff doesn't approve I will happily remove this document, but the pdf of it is below so you don't have to go to FB. Geoff did a 1st and a 2nd gen design, but I think the only change is the filter used. Yeah, Geoff intended this design to have no impact on the existing PowerPro, i.e. it can be reversed, but if you are willing to modify the motor pan then you have more options. Hope this helps. Why not wire the fan you are going to add into the PowerPro wiring so that it comes on at powerup?
HEPA_FILTER_MOD.pdf
(786.17 KiB) Downloaded 99 times
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
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DLB
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by DLB »

edma194 wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:12 pm I'm looking for ideas to turn on that blower in the PowerPro when the motor is running if anyone has ideas. The PowerPro is normally drawing minimal current until the motor starts so simply detecting any current usage on the line won't work.
1) For a low power fan, I'd just wire it to the old-school power switch so it is on regardless of the main motor turning. Dual voltage might be a conflict.
2) A thermostat control, like a small scale version of a powered attic fan? On whenever the ambient inside the headstock is above a threshold.
3) Connected to the same remote switch as a dust collector, so it is on whenever the DC is on. Or its own remote, combined with 1 above?

None of those is doing exactly what you are thinking, just ideas. I kind of like the idea of wiring it to the main power switch and using a dedicated remote, but I'd want a dual voltage fan if I did that cuz I occasionally run on 115V.

- David
RFGuy
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by RFGuy »

DLB wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:11 pm I like his solution to an extent. If I used it, I would move the location of the hose. I suspect that the location shown will create some turbulence inside the headstock as it conflicts with the airflow from the TEFC fan. Also, if you've seen pictures with the inspection plate open, it is blowing directly onto the side of the electronics module as opposed to across the heat sink. In this way, I see it as kind of a brute force solution with too much emphasis on not modifying other parts of the headstock. Intending primarily to replace hot air inside the headstock with cooler air. But it would be relatively easy to adapt to where I think the air is needed, in close proximity to the TEFC fan inlet. But if I can duct the air flow the way I want it, giving clean ambient temperature air to the TEFC fan intake, I'm not convinced I would also need a supplemental fan. At least at moderate to high speeds, the TEFC fan moves a lot of air.

Like you, I'm a fan of PowerPro 2.0. Not to be confused with whatever we're calling headstocks like Tom's that have a new motor along with unknown other changes. I'd like to realize more of the potential of this motor system.

- David
David,

Thanks. Okay, so I am not as familiar with the PowerPro internals as those of you that own one. I am only going off of limited pics available. I agree that the Striatech motor looks to be a TEFC, but my question is where is that external air circulation going from with the TEFC external fan? I mean the fan end of that motor is near the arbor side of the headstock and the headstock is fairly well sealed. Isn't it fairly constrained down there with limited volume around the motor and power supply module? Presumably this end if blowing out towards the headstock (arbor end) and then having to circulate back around the sides and bottom of the motor, right? Also, where is the air inlet of the TEFC? Is it pulling through the motor or is it pulling in from the sides of the fan? Your idea sounds interesting assuming you can get cool air near the inlet where the TEFC fan will suck in and can exhaust hot air out somewhere in the headstock. Having not seen a PowerPro disassembled in person or owning one, I just don't know the answers the above questions, but yeah I think you are on the right track if you can utilize the existing motor fan to be more effective. Of course, you would want to filter any air inlet to keep dust out.

Yeah, I am not familiar with what is new on Tom's PowerPro. Are you referring to the motor mount changes I saw discussed on the forum recently?
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
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bainin
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by bainin »

As the overtemp error is a symptom of the interior case temp...and if the v-belts are the main contributor to internal heating, aside from tension adjustment, what can be done to alter the belt temps? Will direct air flow on them be beneficial ?

b
RFGuy
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Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:05 am
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by RFGuy »

bainin wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:09 pm As the overtemp error is a symptom of the interior case temp...and if the v-belts are the main contributor to internal heating, aside from tension adjustment, what can be done to alter the belt temps? Will direct air flow on them be beneficial ?

b
Bainin,

I don't fully know the PowerPro internals, but I am just making educated guesses based on my career experience. So, the LCD warning discussed here I believe is "Inverter Overheat" which implies a temp sensor for the power FET's used in the switched mode power supply of the PowerPro is overheating. There could be other temperature sensors available, e.g. in the motor, headstock casing, etc., but as far as I know there aren't. So, in operation those FET's are going to get very, very hot (even for "normal" operation), but I suspect what has been reported here by Tom for the inverter overheat is a symptom of an elevated ambient air temp inside the headstock due to improper belt tension. I believe this is what you commented on here previously and also this was reported by rat1932 four years ago. Assuming all of these assumptions and best guesses are correct then any PowerPro headstock with improper belt tension is likely to have overheating particularly during extended use sessions. Belt tension has to be corrected first before even trying to lower ambient temps. Once this is done then you still have internal heating from power supply module electronics, motor and belt/pulley friction. The ventilation improvements discussed on this thread, in my mind, will serve to lower ambient air temps inside the headstock, but whatever belt friction heating that exists will always be there. Not much you can do about it that I know of short of what's in the link below. I mean sure increased ventilation may slightly lower belt self heating temps, but I would question how much it can do. I am a circuits (electronics) guy though, so I welcome any motor and/or pulley system experts to chime in here and correct me if I am wrong.

Minimizing Heat in V-belt drives:
http://gatesbeltsandapplications.blogsp ... rives.html

P.S. FYI...I found a Teknatool list of errors that shows the Inverter Heat warning. Since they also use a similar Striatech DVR motor to the one that Shopsmith buys for the PowerPro the warning should be the same. Note Inverter is mis-spelled though. Of course the description gives little information except to align with what I have been saying that this is a temp sensor in the power supply control module that is reporting this overheating warning.
InverterHeat.jpg
InverterHeat.jpg (14.31 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
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DLB
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by DLB »

bainin wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:09 pm As the overtemp error is a symptom of the interior case temp...and if the v-belts are the main contributor to internal heating, aside from tension adjustment, what can be done to alter the belt temps? Will direct air flow on them be beneficial ?

b
Some folks have reported that putting things like lathe faceplates on the unused spindles helps by getting some of the heat to transfer to something other than the headstock or the air inside of it. That makes a lot of sense to me, especially for the Idler. Not sure what we'd expect in terms of a measured difference. But more air movement in the headstock over the belts would not help IMO. What ultimately matters is getting the heat out of the headstock.

- David
edma194
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Re: PowerPro Thermal Performance

Post by edma194 »

DLB wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:18 pm But more air movement in the headstock over the belts would not help IMO. What ultimately matters is getting the heat out of the headstock.

- David
Right, there has to be effective air removal, nothing practical can be done just by moving air around in the headstock. Exhaust fans are considered better than forced air inlets but keeping sawdust out of the headstock is a benefit for all headstocks, not just PowerPros, and that won't work well with open areas for air to enter unfiltered, so a single location filtered inlet should be part of any solution.

I'm not convinced all the excessive heat is a result of the belts. The PowerPro uses two flat grooved belts (Poly-V belts) instead of the V-belts on the conventional headstock. The flat grooved belts should produce less heat than the V-belts for the same speed and load conditions. Of course the flat grooved belts on the PowerPro can be run at higher speeds and transfer greater power than a conventional headstock. Running the planer, joiner, or sawblades shouldn't produce more heat in a PowerPro headstock than a conventional one unless it's a result of unnecessarily tight belts or a hotter motor. When installing the PowerPro the belts are pretty tight, the eccentric doesn't allow a ton of adjustment and the belt tension needs a certain balance, but my sense now is that the belts are not excessively tight when the eccentric is properly adjusted. One factor additional factor may be misalignment of the belt pulleys both above and below the eccentric. Alignment has to work from the top down, first adjusting the eccentric bushing position so the belt will align with the drive sleeve. Then the motor position can be adjusted on 3-axes so the motor pulley is aligned with the eccentric, the eccentric bushing position. Either belt can easily be located on the wrong grooves on any of the pulleys also. The belts can flex to adjust for a lot of misalignments but they'll produce more heat, and in addition shorten their life.

So for now I'm going to start checking belt heat and motor heat. It is reasonable for a very dense motor of that nature to build up a lot of heat running at high speeds with heavy loads. The iron core of the motor will not transfer heat as well as the copper coils on inductance motors so I would expect the PowerPro motor to reach a higher temperature than the conventional ones.

BTW, why doesn't the PowerPro shut down when the over heat condition is detected? Or does it? I wonder what happened to my problem power supply.
Ed from Rhode Island

510 PowerPro Double Tilt:Greenie PowerPro Drill Press:500 Sanding Shorty w/Belt&Strip Sanders
Super Sawsmith 2000:Scroll Saw w/Stand:Joint-Matic:Power Station:Power Stand:Bandsaw:Joiner:Jigsaw
1961 Goldie:1960 Sawsmith RAS:10ER
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