DC6000 vs. DC3300 vs. other options?

[nduanetesh]

Hi all. I'm very concerned about dust collection in my shop. I have a very small shop (about 1 car garage size), and I mostly build guitars. I'm concerned about sawdust getting in my finishes, and sawdust scratching up existing finishes. (I know I'm going to have to do a TON of cleaning.) I've been looking at getting a used DC3300 (which can usually be had for $150 or less near me), and getting the upgrade kit to bring it up to DC6000 performance, but I've begun to wonder if I shouldn't be spending more on something that will be higher performance. An Oneida Mini Gorilla looks like it might be a good choice, but I'm going to have to think long and hard about that $1,800 price tag, and it looks like it will take up a good bit more room.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how effective is the Shopsmith dust collection system overall? (I have read the thread comparing the 6000 against the 3300, where the conclusion seemed to be that the 6000 is only an improvement if you're operating more than one port.) Am I going to have a giant cloud of fine dust blow off of the bag at the top every time I turn it on? Is it worth an extra $1,200 to go with an Oneida? Are there other options I'm not aware of?

Thanks!

[RFGuy]

Opinions vary wildly on this forum regarding the DC-3300 dust collector. In my opinion, it is a poor dust collector and I retired mine in favor of a ShopVac™ using HEPA bags & HEPA filter cartridges with a Clear Vue CV06 mini cyclone. It works significantly better in my small shop and I have the same problem of trying to keep dust down especially when applying finishes. The difference is measurable as well since I have a couple of laser particulate counters in my shop to monitor airborne dust in my shop. I use a JDS Air Tech 2000 air cleaner mounted to my ceiling to capture as much dust out of the air as possible. My main gripe with the DC-3300, other than very low airflow, is that it uses bag (cloth) filters which are widely regarded as dust pumps, rather than dust collectors, because they let so much dust through. I believe the Shopsmith 12" tall filter hood only filters downs to 7µm and the 24" filter hood down to 5µm, but the 42" filter hood filters down to 1µm. However, a good quality HEPA filter should filter down to 0.3µm and this is the level of dust collection you should be looking for because it is this range of small particulate size that is more damaging to your lungs. Oneida makes good stuff, but they are expensive. Anything that Oneida sells will be higher performance and quality than a DC-3300/DC-6000. One day, I will replace my ShopVac™ setup with a good quality dust collector, but I just haven't gotten to that point yet as it is very expensive.

P.S. The DC-6000 should be better than the DC-3300, but we have no definitive measurements on it to prove it. A patchwork of data and rumor from Shopsmith indicates that it is no better than the DC-3300 when only 1 port is used, i.e. same airflow for DC-3300 or DC-6000 for 1 port only usage. Since you have a small shop, you would be rolling the dice on the upgrade since no one has provided real world airflow measurements on the DC-6000 yet.

P.P.S. The Oneida you mention also has a cyclone which means it will capture more fine particulate dust and keep it in, rather than blowing it throughout the room like the DC-3300/6000 dust hoods will. Also important is that the cyclone will prolong the life of the HEPA filter that the Oneida has. Bottomline is that the Oneida is in a different class from the DC-3300 because it is a 2 stage dust collector whereas the DC-3300/6000 is a 1 stage dust collector.

[algale]

I play guitar but don't build (someday, maybe).

Assuming you own other Shopsmith equipment, one of the things you have to realize about any dust collector you buy to use with the Shopsmith and its various add-on tools (band saw, belt sander, jointer, planer, drum sander) is that dust collection isn't going to be that great no matter what you hook up to it in terms of a dust collector because there are lots of gaps and places for the dust to escape without getting sucked into the dust port (if there even is a dust port). This is particularly true of anything that uses the lower saw guard (table saw, disc sander). There are lots of gaps in that saw guard and gaps between the saw guard and the table that leak sawdust like a sieve. Many of us have tried various work around that help to various degrees but impede function to some degree.

More CFMs hooked up the tool's dust port will probably help but there will still be dust in the air. But the DC6000 still only gives you 300 cfm per hose so I haven't bothered with the upgrade. So the DC3300 will get as much dust as the DC6000 from any one tool at a time. The mini-gorilla says up to 600 cfm but I believe you'll lose some of that stepping down to connect to the Shopsmith dust ports so I think it wouldn't be a wise investment. I did build a large air scrubber (old whole house furnace fan in a box with a HEPA filter on the front) and that does a lot to clean the air. But I still get dust settling on surfaces. You can buy commercial versions of those air scrubbers from Jet etc.

In the end, I think it will be a challenge to keep that garage clean enough to do your finish work in there. Maybe take up french polishing, which is low VOCs and can be done elsewhere in the house away from the dust??

[RFGuy covered a lot these points already, but I wrote it before I saw his response so I posted it anyway.]

[RFGuy]

I did build a large air scrubber (old whole house furnace fan in a box with a HEPA filter on the front) and that does a lot to clean the air. But I still get dust settling on surfaces. You can buy commercial versions of those air scrubbers from Jet etc.

In the end, I think it will be a challenge to keep that garage clean enough to do your finish work in there. Maybe take up french polishing, which is low VOCs and can be done elsewhere in the house away from the dust??

Alan's suggestion reminded me about air cleaners. If you have a spare HVAC blower, as Alan did, this is an ideal setup. As I mentioned I have a large air cleaner from JDS Air Tech on my ceiling, but I also use a cheap $20 box fan from Home Depot with an HVAC pleated paper filter strapped to it for additional supplemental filter cleaning of the air. Running both the JDS and the box fan helps me to get the particulates down in my shop quickly so that I can do polyurethane finishes. On a budget, you could just use the box fan + HVAC filter approach to get cleaner shop air for finish work. IF your shop is small enough, this may be all you need. In addition, there are charcoal HVAC filters which help a little in cutting down on VOC's in the shop, but I still largely have to ventilate outdoors (post finish cure step) when I do finish work. Bottomline is that it is possible to get the air clean enough in a small shop to do finish work, but it is a struggle. I know because I have been doing this for years...hence I am a bit overzealous when it comes to dust collection in my shop. Other forum members with large shops maybe don't pay attention to dust collection as much as a result.

[dusty]

In the small, confined place that you describe it really doesn't matter what dust collection system you use - saw dust is going to impact your ability to do that sort of finish work. I feel that a clean room is your only SAFE choice.

[RFGuy]

IF you do go with a DC-3300 (because they are cheap on the used market), you may want to consider replacing the filter hood with a true HEPA filter like Deicer did here (viewtopic.php?p=301747#p301747). You'll need to put a cyclone of some type in front of it, in order to prolong the HEPA filter life. By the time you spend money on the cyclone + HEPA filter + used DC-3300 you are getting close to what a Harbor Freight DC + Oneida Super Dust Deputy Cyclone + HEPA filter costs, so it is kind of a wash cost-wise IMHO. Also, a standard DC-3300 likely won't have enough airflow if you put a cyclone in front of it, so you might need to consider the DC-6000 upgrade. By the time you spend on the DC-6000 upgrade + used DC-3300 + HEPA filter + cyclone it will have cost more money than the upgraded Harbor Freight DC route. One advantage of a product like the Oneida Mini-Gorilla or Supercell DC's are that they are more compact, i.e. smaller shop footprint than a DC-3300/6000 + cyclone.

[dusty]

If dust collection is the objective can this system be employed effectively without the chip collector (with only the HEPA filter)???

[RFGuy]

If dust collection is the objective can this system be employed effectively without the chip collector (with only the HEPA filter)???

Dusty,

It's possible, but not advisable. Most of the HEPA filters sized for woodworking are in the $200/filter range., i.e. not inexpensive. It varies by manufacturer, but most of them do NOT recommend backwashing (blowing compressed air through filter to dislodge cake) as this can damage the filter and let larger dust particle sizes through. In comparison the filter hoods, like Shopsmith uses, can be easily cleaned - even washed if you want to. So reuse is easy with filter hoods, yet they don't filter small dust particles so worse for your health. HEPA filters do a fantastic job of filtering small dust particles (better for your health), but eventually the filter will need to be replaced. Yes, you can knock the cake off of HEPA filters and this helps. In fact, many woodworking dust collectors have handles to turn to knock dust off of the inside of the HEPA filter. This too prolongs the filter life, but eventually the HEPA filter will need replacement once they become too restrictive. Think of your Shop Vac vacuum which often has a HEPA filter (or knock-off pleated filter) inside. These filters clog incredibly fast. You can clean them a few times, but eventually you have to buy a new filter because suction drops precipitously. Bottomline is that it is highly advisable to use a cyclone in front of any dust collector that uses HEPA filtration...otherwise you will be replacing expensive HEPA filters more frequently.

[DLB]

Soliciting feedback: I like Deicer's approach linked earlier (viewtopic.php?p=301747#p301747). But I'm thinking 4", at least from the DC to the cyclone, therefore Super Dust Deputy 4/5, DC-6000, and I'd probably start with the 42" hood since I already have it. My thinking is that shedding the DC manifold in favor of 4" hose will essentially negate the cyclone losses and result in dramatic performance improvement. (Although I only have one tool that is natively 4"...) More science would be nice.

My experience is a good example of the challenges starting from DC-3300. Two upgrades later, I'm thinking another upgrade. And I think the biggest challenge is the dust that never enters the collection system.

- David

[RFGuy]

Soliciting feedback: I like Deicer's approach linked earlier (viewtopic.php?p=301747#p301747). But I'm thinking 4", at least from the DC to the cyclone, therefore Super Dust Deputy 4/5, DC-6000, and I'd probably start with the 42" hood since I already have it. My thinking is that shedding the DC manifold in favor of 4" hose will essentially negate the cyclone losses and result in dramatic performance improvement. (Although I only have one tool that is natively 4"...) More science would be nice.

My experience is a good example of the challenges starting from DC-3300. Two upgrades later, I'm thinking another upgrade. And I think the biggest challenge is the dust that never enters the collection system.

- David

David,

By more science, are you looking for design equations or ??? It has been a while since I studied cyclone design, but I have some papers stored on my HDD that I can try to dig out. As I understand it, the size of the cyclone is directly proportional to the airflow going through it. This is why for each increase in inlet size, you find a taller and wider cyclone from manufacturers such as Oneida Air. The collection efficiency is a function of the size parameters of the cyclone so it is possible to mismatch the blower and cyclone resulting in degraded collection efficiency. In other words, a properly designed cyclone should have a matched cyclone and blower to be most effective. So, there-in lies the question, is the Oneida Dust Deputy DIY cyclone, that Deicer used, too small for the airflow from a DC-3300, particularly one with the upgraded blower?

I definitely think that pairing a Super Dust Deputy 4/5 to an upgraded DC-3300 without the 3 port manifold could be a good option. Add a HEPA filter like Deicer did and you will likely get the highest possible airflow from this kind of setup, with the only caveat that the upgraded DC-3300/DC-6000 MUST flow enough airflow to keep a high collection efficiency...otherwise your expensive HEPA filter will clog rather fast in this setup IMHO. By the way, the Oneida Air Super Dust Deputy 4/5 has a minimum airlfow spec of 350 CFM, so in theory as long as you maintain that airflow at a minimum you should be good with this cyclone. Question is, you have already spent quite a bit of money on the DC-3300 blower upgrade, but are you willing to drop another $400 for cyclone + HEPA filter on your setup??? Keep in mind, you can get into a woodworking cyclone DC for around $1k and up, which would likely be a smaller footprint than a DC-3300 + Super Dust Deputy + trash can.