DC6000 vs. DC3300 vs. other options?

[DLB]

David,

By more science, are you looking for design equations or ??? It has been a while since I studied cyclone design, but I have some papers stored on my HDD that I can try to dig out. As I understand it, the size of the cyclone is directly proportional to the airflow going through it. This is why for each increase in inlet size, you find a taller and wider cyclone from manufacturers such as Oneida Air. The collection efficiency is a function of the size parameters of the cyclone so it is possible to mismatch the blower and cyclone resulting in degraded collection efficiency. In other words, a properly designed cyclone should have a matched cyclone and blower to be most effective. So, there-in lies the question, is the Oneida Dust Deputy DIY cyclone, that Deicer used, too small for the airflow from a DC-3300, particularly one with the upgraded blower?
That's a great one. At least one source (SS_Jim) indicates no improvement with the upgrade for one hose. Subjectively, I think there is some (unmeasured) improvement under all conditions. But whichever, is there sufficient flow through a single 2.5" hose to collect and separate dust effectively, or in other words is this an improvement? Two hoses likely mean more hose length, the cyclone itself has both volume and resistance to flow.

I definitely think that pairing a Super Dust Deputy 4/5 to an upgraded DC-3300 without the 3 port manifold could be a good option. Add a HEPA filter like Deicer did and you will likely get the highest possible airflow from this kind of setup, with the only caveat that the upgraded DC-3300/DC-6000 MUST flow enough airflow to keep a high collection efficiency...otherwise your expensive HEPA filter will clog rather fast in this setup IMHO. By the way, the Oneida Air Super Dust Deputy 4/5 has a minimum airlfow spec of 350 CFM, so in theory as long as you maintain that airflow at a minimum you should be good with this cyclone. Question is, you have already spent quite a bit of money on the DC-3300 blower upgrade, but are you willing to drop another $400 for cyclone + HEPA filter on your setup??? Keep in mind, you can get into a woodworking cyclone DC for around $1k and up, which would likely be a smaller footprint than a DC-3300 + Super Dust Deputy + trash can.
350 CFM seems like no concern IF both hoses to/from cyclone are 4", in my case that limits me to my planer. But for the rest of my shop I have to neck down to 2.5". IIUC even with two 2.5" hoses on the business end of the cyclone I'm in kind of the marginal range where 350 CFM might be optimistic.(?)

- David

[RFGuy]

That's a great one. At least one source (SS_Jim) indicates no improvement with the upgrade for one hose. Subjectively, I think there is some (unmeasured) improvement under all conditions. But whichever, is there sufficient flow through a single 2.5" hose to collect and separate dust effectively, or in other words is this an improvement? Two hoses likely mean more hose length, the cyclone itself has both volume and resistance to flow.

350 CFM seems like no concern IF both hoses to/from cyclone are 4", in my case that limits me to my planer. But for the rest of my shop I have to neck down to 2.5". IIUC even with two 2.5" hoses on the business end of the cyclone I'm in kind of the marginal range where 350 CFM might be optimistic.(?)

David,

Invariably the airflow will go up when you remove the 3 port manifold because it is HIGHLY restrictive based on real world measurements that I did. Even when running all 3 ports at once, you get lower total airflow than the equivalent aperture of the 4" opening, or at least this was the case when I measured it and compared them. I don't have the numbers handy and it has been a while since I measured mine with and without it. Both the manifold is restrictive AND you have a significant reduction due to the small 2-1/2" hose aperture. I suspect you will easily get more than 350 CFM out of the 4" port of the upgraded DC-3300, but I can't say for sure, i.e. no one else has the equipment to measure it that I know of. The airflow further away from the cyclone inlet, e.g. at the tool side will be lower, but as long as you maintain at least 350CFM through the cyclone I wouldn't expect any problems with collection efficiency. In other words, you don't have to maintain 350CFM down the entire length of hose between the cyclone inlet and the tool dust port. The restriction of the hose and reducing from 4"->2.5" will knock the airflow down some. IF airspeed (fpm) is constant, then airflow (CFM) will be larger in 4" hose than it will be 2.5" hose due to the aperture difference. CFM = (fpm * area)

P.S. I believe I dug up my notes for when I removed the 3 port manifold and took airflow measurements using an anemometer. It was on the order of 450 CFM through the 4" inlet with my stock DC-3300 using a 42" filter hood and NO manifold. Like, I said, the 3 port manifold is VERY restrictive because I can't even get 150 CFM out of a 1 port measurement with it. viewtopic.php?p=285543#p285543

[john_001]

Generally, you almost always want to do any size reductions at the tool, not at the DC. So if you have a 2 1/2" dust port, you should remove the manifold as RF suggests, run a 4" duct to the tool, then use a reducer at the end of the duct. Use as little flex duct as possible - it's an airflow killer.

[nduanetesh]

Thanks for the all of the input, everyone. My shop is VERY small (it's about 10'x17'), so space is a major concern. I've decided to forego the DC3300, and go with a cyclonic separator in front of my Ridgid shop vac, and a ceiling mounted air scrubber. Actually, I'm going to try to mount the cyclone above the shop vac, as shown here: https://youtu.be/WyBuRjO54NM Maybe I'll also put a HEPA filter in the shop vac?

That will be my initial setup, and I'll see how that works and make adjustments if needed going forward. I expect most of my shopsmith work is going to be drilling and bandsawing, which aren't going to be throwing huge clouds of dust in the air. I'd like to try my hand at woodturning (mostly chips, not too much dust?), also. On days when I need the table saw and the jointer...well, those will be messy days and I'll just have to do a lot of cleanup afterward.

Anyway, I figure the cyclone will get the big stuff and a lot of the dust, the shop vac will filter out a lot more of the dust, and anything that gets past them will get picked up by the air scrubber. Fingers crossed.

[RFGuy]

Thanks for the all of the input, everyone. My shop is VERY small (it's about 10'x17'), so space is a major concern. I've decided to forego the DC3300, and go with a cyclonic separator in front of my Ridgid shop vac, and a ceiling mounted air scrubber. Actually, I'm going to try to mount the cyclone above the shop vac, as shown here: https://youtu.be/WyBuRjO54NM Maybe I'll also put a HEPA filter in the shop vac?

That will be my initial setup, and I'll see how that works and make adjustments if needed going forward. I expect most of my shopsmith work is going to be drilling and bandsawing, which aren't going to be throwing huge clouds of dust in the air. I'd like to try my hand at woodturning (mostly chips, not too much dust?), also. On days when I need the table saw and the jointer...well, those will be messy days and I'll just have to do a lot of cleanup afterward.

Anyway, I figure the cyclone will get the big stuff and a lot of the dust, the shop vac will filter out a lot more of the dust, and anything that gets past them will get picked up by the air scrubber. Fingers crossed.

Yeah, I share your concern. My shop is a few feet longer than yours, but our shop spaces are similar in that they are small spaces to do woodworking in. Honestly, in shop spaces this small you can do A LOT with a good quality shop vacuum and they are relatively compact. In my experience, it will work as well or better than a stock DC-3300. IF you are using mostly Shopsmith equipment, they all have 2.5" dust ports which limit the airflow available for dust collection. IF you had other shop tools with 4" or larger ports then a bigger dust collector like the Oneida Air Mini Gorilla makes more sense, but when limited to 2.5" dust ports I don't believe you gain much with a small dust collector versus a good shop vacuum. I have a Shop Vac™, but unfortunately they went out of business a year or two ago. What was nice about the Shop Vac™ is that they sold both HEPA filter bags and HEPA filter cartridges for the vacuum. I use both in mine, but I actually had to do some additional sealing to get the vacuum housing air tight (you might need to do the same with the Ridgid vacuum). My understanding is the Ridgid shop vacuums are very good and powerful vacuums, so I would expect it to be equivalent (or better) to my Shop Vac™. In that video from John Builds It, he shows a Dustopper being used, but I wouldn't recommend it. It is NOT a true cyclone, but more of a Thien baffle separator. Reviews are mixed for it online, but I believe you would have better results with a suitable mini-cyclone like the Oneida Air Dust Deputy 2.5 DIY Cyclone Separator (https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-deputy/ ... -separator) or Clear Vue CV06 Mini System (https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/produc ... ni-system/). The key to making a setup like this work is you have to keep the HEPA filter(s) clean and my CV06 cyclone does this. Without a good mini cyclone in front of a shop vacuum what will happen is that the filter will clog rather quickly and your airflow/suction will drop precipitously yielding poor dust collection. Also, why I don't recommend the Dustopper since it is not a cyclone and will let too much fine dust through resulting in a drop in vacuum performance.

Since you want to do finish work in the same space, it may be helpful for you to monitor the dust particulate in the air. Would also be helpful for knowing how dirty the air is for your own health. I have two laser particle counter units that I use for this. The more economical unit is an air quality monitor module from China and is $50. The more expensive unit is manufactured by an American company and is $260. There are pros and cons to each unit so if you want to know more let me know. The $50 unit is probably all you need if you want to know how much dust is flying around in the air. Good luck with your new setup.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DL ... UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Dylos-DC1100-Pro ... 97e41410bb
http://www.dylosproducts.com/ornodcproair.html

[Erik]

nduanetesh,

Whatever system you go with -- like others on the site I would recommend a ClearVue or Oneida cyclone separator -- be sure and pair it with a good dust-particle counter. In small shops the dust can quickly build up to an unacceptable limit and without a monitor you would likely be unaware of it. As an example, my shop is about 350 sqft and something as simple as cutting a 10" board with a handsaw will dramatically elevate my fine dust. I would never have known that without a good monitor.

Like RFGuy, I have a Dylos DC1100 Pro Monitor. It's more expensive than other models, but works really well (I see from my records that I paid about half the current price in 2018 when I bought mine!). I would also encourage you to visit Bill Pentz's website for a tour de force on dust collection (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php). Having a good particle monitor is one of the ideas that I came away with from reading his informative website. The other two were to re-work my tools ports to be at least 4" and to find a DC that delivered 1,000 CFM to those upgraded ports ... as you are probably aware, the second point is generally agreed to whereas the third point is vigorously debated here and elsewhere because of cost, space and noise. See viewtopic.php?p=268913#p268913 for a flavor of the debate.

Regards,

-Erik

[RFGuy]

Erik,

Thanks. Glad to see there is someone else out there who has read and understands Bill Pentz site besides me. It truly is an informative resource for woodworkers. I agree that there are definitely tasks that surprised me for the amount of instant dust spewed into the air...you mention hand sawing, but for me the "a ha" moment was just a few short passes of hand sanding. I was surprised how much and how quickly my small shop air was filled with small particle size particulates from such a short duration activity, so shop monitoring is a necessity IMHO. Whenever mine gets out of control by an activity like hand sanding or sawing by hand, I kick up my air scrubber to high speed for a while. Also try to do as much as I can with power tools with good dust collection, rather than hand operations. By the way, how are you liking the Sharkguard? I see it listed on your profile. Do you use it with your Mark V and does it do a good job on dust collection for it? How much of a pain is it to use in practice? I moved my DC-3300 into the attic over my shop and intend to use it with a Sharkguard in the future. Some day I need to move my late father-in-law's Clear Vue cyclone here and install it outside of my shop with ducting into my shop. It is one of the early model PETG plastic models from Clear Vue.

[Erik]

RFGuy,

I've had the Sharkguard since 2018 and really like it. It's easy to set up and captures all of the dust above the table. In my case I run a 4" hose to the Sharkguard that draws about 735 CFM and a squeezed down 2 1/2" hose to the saw guard below the table that draws about 290 CFM (you will really like your ClearVue cyclone when you get it up and running -- going from a shop vac and dust deputy to a full-sized cyclone that reliably delivers 1,000 CFM at the tool face was revolutionary). A few bits of sawdust still escape the lower saw guard -- despite implementing all the updates recommended here in the forum -- but they are larger sized and not the airborne dust that I worry about. I can highly recommend the Sharkguard.

As an aside, my two favorite after-market updates for the Mark V table saw are the Sharkguard for dust control and the Jessem TS hold down for controlling kickback. I can't say enough good things about both of those products.

Regards,

-Erik

[RFGuy]

Erik,

Thanks. Yeah, this is what I was wondering, i.e. how much more dust collection can be achieved at the Mark V above table via the Sharkguard, e.g. does more airflow above table pull more of the dust skyward rather than down through the lower saw guard. I know that the lower saw guard is inadequate. Even with hacks to eliminate below table leaks, you are still limited in airflow by the 2.5" dust port. I really wish Shopsmith would offer a new lower saw guard with either dual 2.5" ports or a single 4" port. After my father-in-law passed, I have access to his woodworking shop equipment either for my own use or to sell the equipment. Right now I am planning on relocating his old Clear Vue cyclone to my shop, but I have to mount it outside because my shop is just too small and I don't have the ceiling height for it. My plan is to come in just under the roof and put the ductwork for it into the attic ceiling so that I can drop down at my Mark V and a few other locations. To date, my dust collection on my Mark V is at least equivalent to my old DC-3300 or perhaps a bit better. I am able to achieve this with just a good quality Shop Vac™ + CV06 Mini Cyclone because that 2.5" port chokes down so much on ANY dust collector's airflow. In short, I don't think I am losing much with my Shop Vac™ setup, though the Clear Vue big cyclone will be a very nice luxury for my small shop. Yeah, the Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides are the single best upgrade that I have done to my Mark V, so if in your experience the Sharkguard ranks up there with it, then that is high praise indeed for this product. So, you got the Sharkguard with the 4" hose connection, correct? I was thinking the smaller connection - either 2.5" or 3", but now you have me re-considering.

[br549]

I have a Shop Vac™, but unfortunately they went out of business a year or two ago. What was nice about the Shop Vac™ is that they sold both HEPA filter bags and HEPA filter cartridges for the vacuum.

Shop Vac came back ... not sure if all products are back or not.