ZCI and the quill

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dusty
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Re: ZCI and the quill

Post by dusty »

RFGuy wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:17 pm
dusty wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:55 pm Maybe I don't understand the intended procedure here. The object is to get a precisely located cut. To do that I would think the fence was located close- very close to the intended measurement and then locked in place. Then the micro adjust (of the blade) would take place.

My problem here is that I do not do woodworking that requires the saw blade to be so precisely located. Within +/- .003" is in my mind "micro adjusted". How close do you want to get.
Dusty,

There are times where a cut is "good enough". Honestly most of woodworking is exactly that. However, there are times where an exact replacement part needs to be constructed or various other reasons where a setup needs to be repeated after that setup has been torn down. SS equipment doesn't give a good way to go back and repeat such a setup unfortunately (Incra positioner is but one example of a 3rd party solution for this). There are a handful of people doing more precision work in woodworking. Segmented bowl turning is but one example, but there are others. Kumiko woodworking requires precision. Another example is some choose to make intricate cutting boards, e.g. creating the illusion of a 3D pattern. Precision matters for this work. Yes, you can try to get all of your pieces ripped while on one setup, but what happens if/when you need to go back for more cuts and you already broke it down for another operation? This is where it matters, i.e. without a repeatable platform you can use precision of micro-adjustability to get back to where that previous setup was set to. Jim McCann even spoke to Nick Engler on his YT channel about one case where he needed very high precision for a wooden music stand I believe - memory may be off here and I don't want to watch the 70min video again, but I think that is what he described. Of course, he didn't do this on a Mark V, but rather his other brand tablesaw, but the same principles apply to either. Bottomline is some woodworkers push the envelope when it comes to woodworking and they NEED the precision, i.e. it is NOT overkill for such people. The rest of us may never get to needing that level of precision, but it is aspirational for us and that is okay too. ;)

If this level of "precision" and "repeatability" is truly "needed" (especially on a routine basis) then the Shopsmith is NOT the right tool for the job.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
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RFGuy
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Re: ZCI and the quill

Post by RFGuy »

dusty wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:01 am If this level of "precision" and "repeatability" is truly "needed" (especially on a routine basis then ther Shopsmith is NOT the right tool for the job.
Dusty,

I found the part of the video if you are interested. Start watching that Jim and Nick video at around 30 minutes. He made a wooden music stand for his nephew and the center column of it is splined interlocking to make it telescoping. He commented that he needed to get within one thousandth of an inch to make it work. Too tight and the column wouldn't slide freely, too loose and it wouldn't hold together. He talks about adding micro-adjustability to all of the stop blocks around his shop as well to give him the ability to go down to one thousandth of an inch when necessary. I am not sure what tablesaw he has, but being a big cabinet saw makes it a little easier for alignment probably. However, I would expect a Mark V made rigid enough with connector tubes to the aux table should be able to achieve this, BUT maybe not on its own. Either a custom fence/crosscut sled with micro-adjust or a 3rd party solution like from Incra would be required in my opinion. Maybe such a setup can't get to one thousandths, but two or three thousandths due to SS variation because of the table adaptability. I don't know. I just wanted to point out that some woodworkers do need that kind of precision. It isn't a woodworker trying to be a machinist, but rather they are pushing their tools and the material to its absolute limits...the same as a machinist or any other craftsman would in their particular trade/art. IMHO, these people should be celebrated. As soon as I saw that music stand column from Jim McCann, I had a greater appreciation for him - both as a SS engineer and as a woodworker.
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dusty
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Re: ZCI and the quill

Post by dusty »

RFGuy wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:33 am
dusty wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:01 am If this level of "precision" and "repeatability" is truly "needed" (especially on a routine basis then ther Shopsmith is NOT the right tool for the job.
Dusty,

I found the part of the video if you are interested. Start watching that Jim and Nick video at around 30 minutes. He made a wooden music stand for his nephew and the center column of it is splined interlocking to make it telescoping. He commented that he needed to get within one thousandth of an inch to make it work. Too tight and the column wouldn't slide freely, too loose and it wouldn't hold together. He talks about adding micro-adjustability to all of the stop blocks around his shop as well to give him the ability to go down to one thousandth of an inch when necessary. I am not sure what tablesaw he has, but being a big cabinet saw makes it a little easier for alignment probably. However, I would expect a Mark V made rigid enough with connector tubes to the aux table should be able to achieve this, BUT maybe not on its own. Either a custom fence/crosscut sled with micro-adjust or a 3rd party solution like from Incra would be required in my opinion. Maybe such a setup can't get to one thousandths, but two or three thousandths due to SS variation because of the table adaptability. I don't know. I just wanted to point out that some woodworkers do need that kind of precision. It isn't a woodworker trying to be a machinist, but rather they are pushing their tools and the material to its absolute limits...the same as a machinist or any other craftsman would in their particular trade/art. IMHO, these people should be celebrated. As soon as I saw that music stand column from Jim McCann, I had a greater appreciation for him - both as a SS engineer and as a woodworker.
Thanks for locating this portion of the video. I'll view this later to day.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
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edflorence
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Re: ZCI and the quill

Post by edflorence »

Interesting discussion and I appreciate the insights.

Myself, I have never tried to work to such tight tolerances. I set the fence by measuring off a tooth tip and then making a test cut. Then using a combination square referenced to the outer edge of the table I can "micro adjust" the fence. On a good day, with a good pair of cheaters on, I can set the square to somewhere between a 64h and a 128th. This method also lets you repeat the set up of the fence after it is moved, providing you don't change the setting of the square. Also, you do not have to remove the zci to do it this way.

I think if tighter tolerances are needed, adjusting the fence alone is probably not the way to go, but you would need to make a suitable holding fixture for the work piece. Given how much wood can move with just a small change in ambient humidity, I wonder how necessary or productive it is in most cases to try to work to tolerances smaller than the dimensional changes a piece will experience from season to season.
Ed
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jsburger
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Re: ZCI and the quill

Post by jsburger »

If you want the ultimate in precision, micro adjustment and dead on repeatability the Tigerfence is the ultimate. Unfortunately it will not work on a Shopsmith. The other thing is that it costs almost as much as a Shopsmith. Precision is not cheap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4ZnD-IRPKw
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edflorence
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Re: ZCI and the quill

Post by edflorence »

John-
Thanks for the link...that is an amazing piece of technology.
Ed
Idaho Panhandle
Mark 5 of various vintages, Mini with reversing motor, bs, dc3300, jointer, increaser, decreaser
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