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[edma194]

I wasn't too far off the 90/10 guess on the tubes to tie bar cost, it costs $4.09 more for just the tubes and pins over the cost of the tie bar assembly. $240.58 vs $236.49. I could be a little cynical here, but will give them the benefit of the doubt that it truly does cost more to separate them than to sell as an assembly.
Jerry

I'm sure they are assembled in house, and possibly they make the legs in house as well. The pricing isn't really that bad in comparison to other Shopsmith parts, although I'm sure the rest of the tie bar assembly costs more than the legs. But with steel prices fluctuating wildly, and their need to stock both single and double sided leg the pricing has to hedge against that uncertainty. Someone with a milling machine might offer a service to cut grooves on the other side of the legs, but I doubt they can get the price down significantly below $100 a leg for the service, and that's with you supplying an existing leg to mill. Two new legs made elsewhere are unlikely to come in under $200, and that wouldn't include a tie bar.

[edma194]

Now back to the Double Tilt:
When the saddle joint is created in the user version of the double tilt, is the set screw the only thing keeping the pivoting point from falling away from the legs? I must not be seeing this correctly. I have seen a youtube video where a guy modified the pivot pin where it was removable. Since I can't see the opposite side of the double tilt brackets on SS web site, I can't compare.
Thanks
Jerry

DLB filled you in on the details there. I have not completed my experiment yet so thus far I am certainly not saying this is a successful approach that others should use, especially on a full length machine since I'm only using this on a half size shorty.

However, I do worry about that bolt holding the way tube assembly tightly on the hinge pin. When in vertical more the traditional tilt lock side screw is very effective at holding the casting down, but I see potential problems in not getting the hinge pin locking screw engaged properly. Unfortunately the side locking screws do nothing in horizontal mode, I think the entire assembly would be more stable if those could be used to lock the castings down on both ends. I'm not worried about the hinge pins being a problem since I used old castings with the thicker 3/4" pins. However, I have one of the real things and that 1/2" looks like it could get bent in several ways. I'd be worried about someone slamming down the assembly from vertical mode and damaging that rod from contact with the casting or the lock pin not being fully retracted. Also, everyone should be cautious about overtightening the top set screws on the end casting, the casting is thin there.

[gac5ss]

Now back to the Double Tilt:
When the saddle joint is created in the user version of the double tilt, is the set screw the only thing keeping the pivoting point from falling away from the legs? I must not be seeing this correctly. I have seen a youtube video where a guy modified the pivot pin where it was removable. Since I can't see the opposite side of the double tilt brackets on SS web site, I can't compare.
Thanks
Jerry

DLB filled you in on the details there. I have not completed my experiment yet so thus far I am certainly not saying this is a successful approach that others should use, especially on a full length machine since I'm only using this on a half size shorty.

However, I do worry about that bolt holding the way tube assembly tightly on the hinge pin. When in vertical more the traditional tilt lock side screw is very effective at holding the casting down, but I see potential problems in not getting the hinge pin locking screw engaged properly. Unfortunately the side locking screws do nothing in horizontal mode, I think the entire assembly would be more stable if those could be used to lock the castings down on both ends. I'm not worried about the hinge pins being a problem since I used old castings with the thicker 3/4" pins. However, I have one of the real things and that 1/2" looks like it could get bent in several ways. I'd be worried about someone slamming down the assembly from vertical mode and damaging that rod from contact with the casting or the lock pin not being fully retracted. Also, everyone should be cautious about overtightening the top set screws on the end casting, the casting is thin there.

So the pin alteration which allows the pin to be removed to go vertical may be a better design? A simple tractor hitch pin in one end of the pin and a welded on shoulder washer on the opposite end would keep it from falling out while in vertical mode. I think this would be an alteration for a machinist. Completely replace the existing pins with close tolerance removable pins manufactured by a machine shop on a machinist lathe.

I will ask my machine shop friend about it.

[edma194]

So the pin alteration which allows the pin to be removed to go vertical may be a better design? A simple tractor hitch pin in one end of the pin and a welded on shoulder washer on the opposite end would keep it from falling out while in vertical mode. I think this would be an alteration for a machinist. Completely replace the existing pins with close tolerance removable pins manufactured by a machine shop on a machinist lathe.

I will ask my machine shop friend about it.

To get those pins back in easily you will need some guide and support blocks attached to the casting to get a pin to line up with the hole on the other side, and to hold the casting up after it's removed. You also have to make sure nothing can get damaged if you drop the assembly down hard either with or without the hinge pin in place. The whole point of the lock screw was to make it a simpler operation to change modes, and I think it is, and you can make it secure enough for your own needs if you do it yourself.

[gac5ss]

By the way, I have sent Shopsmith an email asking why they will sell the double grooved main table tubes in a user serviceable assembly (Double Tilt), but won't sell them without the tie Bar. Granted the tubes may be 90% of the cost of the tie bar assembly. I asked them that too. Maybe I will get an answer.

Thanks for all your advice.

It looks like the tie bar assembly is the same price for 510, 520, and Mark 7 machines, so I'm not clear that would always include the double grooved legs. The part number is the same in the double tilt upgrade manual, but that is supposed to be the part number for the new posts by themselves. Some clarity would be useful here.

This thread is a little long in the tooth, but I want to share a response that Shopsmith gave to my question about the tiebar assembly.
"Question: does this part have the grooves cut on two sides to allow table to be reversed in the carriage?

514344 tie bar; tube assembly (m7; all mv models except 500) ... $236.49

thanks"

SS Reply: "Based on the diagram, this could be possible.


Thank you,
Shopsmith"

Not exactly clear, but if I order one, it will be via phone an a stipulation that it have double grooves cut.

[DLB]

This thread is a little long in the tooth, but I want to share a response that Shopsmith gave to my question about the tiebar assembly.
"Question: does this part have the grooves cut on two sides to allow table to be reversed in the carriage?

I'm glad you characterized that as a response rather than an answer!

- David

[JPG]

This thread is a little long in the tooth, but I want to share a response that Shopsmith gave to my question about the tiebar assembly.
"Question: does this part have the grooves cut on two sides to allow table to be reversed in the carriage?

I'm glad you characterized that as a response rather than an answer!

- David

+10**∞