Main Table Stability....in Saw Table and Drill Press Modes

[dusty]

If we are going to talk about this let us do it here rather than hijacking the X-6000 thread.

As a starter, I believe it needs to defined exactly what is "too much" and are we talking about lateral of vertical movement in either mode.

What is the reference point/surface for each?

[Matanuska]

The main issue I encounter in drill press mode is maintaining the table perpendicular to the drill bit when drilling hard woods. Adding the extension legs helps minimize table flex, but even then the back of the table sometimes slips on the way tubes when drilling.

[RFGuy]

Dusty,

This has been discussed over and over on past threads here on the forum. Why start a new thread on this issue? Even Nick Engler acknowledged it in that video David posted on the X-6000 thread. Why do you think it is in dispute when Shopsmith's own representative (Nick Engler) posted a video on it???

[dusty]

Dusty,

This has been discussed over and over on past threads here on the forum. Why start a new thread on this issue? Even Nick Engler acknowledged it in that video David posted on the X-6000 thread. Why do you think it is in dispute when Shopsmith's own representative (Nick Engler) posted a video on it???

Easy question. Because when I setup properly I don't experience enough table movement to be concerned AND
the X-6000 thread was becoming over run by discussion unrelated to the X-6000.

AND I'd really like to know what others think is too much movement. Many complain that the table is unstable but no one states how much their tables move or what forces cause it to move.

[DLB]

My machine (M7) is set up as a TS, stabilized via standard length connector tubes but with the extension table on the left. That's not how I'd normally do it but that's how the machine happens to be configured. I put a SS-style dial indicator base in the right slot with a paper shim on one side to improve repeatability. Zeroed a dial indictor with 0.001" 'resolution' measuring from slot to blade. I needed 'standard' weights so I placed a 520 fence upside down on the right edge of the table. Measured 0.001" deflection. Placed a 510/520 sanding disc centered on top of the fence, measured 0.002" deflection. Removed the stabilizing connector tubes and retested. Fence alone caused 0.007" deflection and fence plus sanding disc caused 0.012" deflection.

I used the measurement from slot to blade because IIRC that's what Nick used in the video, and because of the way my machine was set up. A different setup is needed to measure other conditions where the woodworking operation itself causes deflection. The amount of force and where the force is applied matter, as JPG mentioned in the other thread.

I have a modified table assembly I'll try this on later before I otherwise disturb the setup.

- David

[dusty]

Dusty,

This has been discussed over and over on past threads here on the forum. Why start a new thread on this issue? Even Nick Engler acknowledged it in that video David posted on the X-6000 thread. Why do you think it is in dispute when Shopsmith's own representative (Nick Engler) posted a video on it???

Yes he did but in that same demonstration video he did not verify all five locks. Could it be that the carriage lock was not set or was set improperly. If the carriage lock is not properly adjusted the table with "wiggle" just exactly like Nick demonstrated.

[RFGuy]

Easy question. Because when I setup properly I don't experience enough table movement to be concerned AND
the X-6000 thread was becoming over run by discussion unrelated to the X-6000.

AND I'd really like to know what others think is too much movement. Many complain that the table is unstable but no one states how much their tables move or what forces cause it to move.

Dusty,

The reason that I objected is that this topic has come up on multiple past threads. To summarize past discussions:

Someone complains about main table movement (with or without the connector tubes anchored to the aux table). Then discussion ensues over whether they had a good alignment to begin with or not. Once this is proven to be a good alignment, then the argument changes to what kind of measurement tools are used and their accuracy? IF/when it is proved that a forum member has competency and the right measurement tools, then the argument changes again to what is the needed accuracy for a given saw cut? Some Shopsmith owners are assembling 2x4'x for garden box planters and can tolerate an 1/8" or more of slop. Others might be doing finger joints on a box/cabinet/drawer and need very good accuracy. Not everyone needs the absolute best accuracy, but some do. I'll let you guys try to reinvent the discussion this time...

P.S. A few past threads for reference, but this has been debated many times on past threads:

viewtopic.php?p=305057#p305057

viewtopic.php?t=24431

viewtopic.php?p=290959#p290959

viewtopic.php?p=247367#p247367

[edma194]

Table saw mode and drill press mode present entirely different problems. With conventional table saws there's no perceived table instability because the table is well secured to the base of cabinet of the saw. If you can pick up the saw by the table and shake it you won't notice any instability because it would manifest in movement of the blade and arbor that you won't feel. You will notice it if you have ragged edges, burning and binding on cuts. But you don't impart a lot of forces on the blade in use except at right angles to the motor shaft. So the problem is removing motion of a table that is physically remote from the headstock and mounted on two posts.

This following bit is important to this discussion.

Some Shopsmith owners are assembling 2x4'x for garden box planters and can tolerate an 1/8" or more of slop. Others might be doing finger joints on a box/cabinet/drawer and need very good accuracy. Not everyone needs the absolute best accuracy, but some do.

I have used the Shopsmith table saw mode more for cutting lumber than fine woodworking. On my Sawsmith 2000 the same has turned out true so far but I hope that ratio is turning around as I get around to doing that fine woodworking after around half a century of trying to find the time for it. For the Shopsmith table saw mode I think the common issue will be the one I have encountered before, trimming larger glue-up parts such as a cutting board or table top.

I'll return to this thread to discuss the drill press but I'm afraid I have nothing new to offer on the table saw table mode. The tables are what they are.

[dusty]

Table saw mode and drill press mode present entirely different problems. With conventional table saws there's no perceived table instability because the table is well secured to the base of cabinet of the saw. If you can pick up the saw by the table and shake it you won't notice any instability because it would manifest in movement of the blade and arbor that you won't feel. You will notice it if you have ragged edges, burning and binding on cuts. But you don't impart a lot of forces on the blade in use except at right angles to the motor shaft. So the problem is removing motion of a table that is physically remote from the headstock and mounted on two posts.

This following bit is important to this discussion.

Some Shopsmith owners are assembling 2x4'x for garden box planters and can tolerate an 1/8" or more of slop. Others might be doing finger joints on a box/cabinet/drawer and need very good accuracy. Not everyone needs the absolute best accuracy, but some do.

I have used the Shopsmith table saw mode more for cutting lumber than fine woodworking. On my Sawsmith 2000 the same has turned out true so far but I hope that ratio is turning around as I get around to doing that fine woodworking after around half a century of trying to find the time for it. For the Shopsmith table saw mode I think the common issue will be the one I have encountered before, trimming larger glue-up parts such as a cutting board or table top.

I'll return to this thread to discuss the drill press but I'm afraid I have nothing new to offer on the table saw table mode. The tables are what they are.

Let us not confuse stability with either accuracy or repeatability.

Stability. It stays where you put it after you do a perfect alignment.

[RFGuy]

Ed,

I agree and thanks for highlighting my comment above. For me, that is the key point because this discussion has come up over and over again in the past here. There is a myth that continues to perpetuate in woodworking that chasing accuracy is not needed because woodworking is more forgiving than metalworking, i.e. a woodworker can be more lax than a machinist. Sure this stereotype holds true probably for most use cases and projects. The result is that OFTEN woodworkers who ask for a bit more accuracy get ridiculed online. However, there are specific applications in woodworking that need it and exceptional woodworkers that require more accuracy. The question of course always becomes well how accurate do you need it to be and honestly I haven't seen anyone quantify that well. What I can tell you is that the human hand (fingers) can perceive very small perturbations in a wood surface (link below). On more than one YT video I have heard even down to I think one thousandth difference can be perceived between edges by your fingers. Maybe not everyone runs their hands across a table top discerning joint gaps, but you can see them at a certain level, especially joint gaps. I believe everyone here has fondness for Shopsmith's resident chief of engineering, Jim McCann, and I will never forget the music stand leg that he showed with interlocking splines that he said he needed accuracy to less than a few thousandths (didn't give an exact number) to make it work well. IF it was too loose the stand would fall down and if it was too tight, the splines wouldn't slide. See Scott's interview with Jim for more details. It is a beautiful design and exemplary of what can be achieved by a skilled woodworker and engineer. Kudos Jim. Getting off topic, but pointing out that if that level of accuracy in the finished product is needed by some, then yes, that level of accuracy (better actually) is needed in the woodworking machine itself, so tables that move (when they shouldn't) can be a real problem IMHO.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110853.htm