Shopsmith's new website is up....

[RFGuy]

Coincidentally, when Shopsmith ships you a replacement Support Base and Top Support, these MUST be matched parts, i.e. machined together. Even though I gave them exact part numbers and told them all that I had received and all that I needed in a nicely formatted list they still struggled to get me the replacement parts. I think it took 3 more shipments to finally receive everything. I did NOT receive both the Support Base and Top Support together in the initial replacement. What this caused is when I did finally put together my Support Base and Top Support, it had concentricity errors between the bore holes in each. This is the bore hole that the Tool Support shaft slides in. You can see the noticeable lip in the 1st pic below. Because the Support Base and Top Support align through the 4 socket head cap screws, the large bore hole (Tool Support shaft) has to also be milled together to have one smooth and concentrically aligned shaft for the Tool Support to slide into. What I received was unusable, but Jim did quickly realize what had happened when I finally got him on the phone and sent out a replacement Support Base and Top Support that were aligned to each other. Thank you Jim. You can see how bad of an alignment the original parts had externally in the last pic. The final replacement worked as expected but no customer should have to go through so many iterations to get a working product in the end IMHO. Especially one that could have been avoided had they only properly packed and shipped the product.

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[edma194]

Ed,

Thanks. So, I understand, are you saying that the quality of a Mark V/7 and/or its accessories are on par with Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, Laguna, etc.? I would agree that I would take my Mark V any day compared to a portable contractor TS, but in terms of quality I don't see my Mark V as being on the same level of build quality that I have seen with traditional woodworking machinery companies. Having looked at them up close in person. In terms of cost, I could get Jet or Grizzly separates of better quality than my Mark V for the cost of a new Mark 7. I don't think Shopsmith quality is what it once was, but maybe I am the only one that has this perception.

I had to think about the answers to this because the situation has been changing. I'll assume for now that the quality issues can be addressed. Most of them are in the domain of Quality Control, but apparently lack engineering talent as well so there seem to be tweaks and outright improvements that aren't getting done. The packing issue is also something that can be fixed. I don't know for sure the quality issues will be resolved but they aren't anywhere near insurmountable. OTOH if they don't turn around soon it could be the start of a death spiral.

Looking at price and utility the situation becomes more difficult. First, the comparison to a set individual machines was long in favor of Shopsmith, assuming you would use a lot of the functions. If you just wanted a table saw and drill press, you could do better for the price of a 520, and much better for the price of a Mark 7. But the Shopsmith has always been about the extent of capabilities, not comparisons one on one with individual machines. If you take advantage of all the capabilities of a Shopsmith, especially when you have limited space, then the Shopsmith still looks good to me. Not with a PowerPro for most people. The price of that beast is high, the upgrade I bought outright was quite expensive even back when but at the time it was just another toy to have. It adds little to the capability of a Shopsmith, the high end of the speed range has limited use and can be replaced with a rather ordinary router. The low end is somewhat useful but you can get that from a speed reducer.

If you do use a lot of the functionality available, either on the basic machine or with SPTs, then a 520 is expensive now, but still better then you'll do buying individual comparable machines. But the comparable is the key word there. The table saw is unusual. I started with a 500 and the smaller table, but it worked well enough. I never like cutting bevels by tilting the table but I got by. Other small table saws I used each had their own problems. However, you won't easily find a 12" disk sander with variable speed and a table like the Shopsmith provides. You won't easily find a horizontal boring machine, or a device you can easily mount drum sanders and grinding wheels or any of a multitude of rotary tools that can operate with variable speed. And then you also have a lathe. I haven't done a lot of turning yet but I see the work of others and it's certainly capable. You can also power all the SPTS with variable speed, something very useful on a bandsaw. So if you will use the extended capabilities of a Shopsmith I think a 520 is still a good value. If you are taking advantage of all those capabilities it may not be worth the money.

There are many more considerations to evaluate based on higher prices now. It's not an easy call anymore. There's no doubt in my mind that Shopsmith has to address pricing better, and resolve the broad range of quality issues the company won't be around long. But they have a chance to deal with these things. And there's no question that used Shopsmith equipment can be a fantastic deal. I wouldn't count on being able to maintain many other power tools over a lifetime. But the entry price for a new Shopsmith has become a serious marketing issue for them to deal with.

I don't know if that's a good answer to your questions. The upshot is simple, 25 years ago a Shopsmith was a great multi-purpose woodworking machine at a justifiable price. Now it's not so clear, and that's not good for the company. Being the same machine now at higher prices will drive people toward alternatives, many of which have come down in price in that time frame.

[RFGuy]

I don't know if that's a good answer to your questions. The upshot is simple, 25 years ago a Shopsmith was a great multi-purpose woodworking machine at a justifiable price. Now it's not so clear, and that's not good for the company. Being the same machine now at higher prices will drive people toward alternatives, many of which have come down in price in that time frame.

Ed,

Thanks. Yeah, I agree with most everything you said up above. I will say this again, because I think it bears repeating. I want Shopsmith to succeed and continue to be a viable company. When I bought my equipment around 2 decades ago, out of the box everything worked and was in good condition. The build quality was evident and complaints I might have are design related about that equipment, NOT quality related. More recently, there are the quality issues reported by Tom on his M7 purchase documented on his YT channel. Way too many and totally unacceptable in my book. There are the myriad of PowerPro quality issues that I don't find acceptable and have deterred me from even considering one. There is the lathe tool rest crack issue that I found out about in recent years that is also an easy fix but never addressed by Shopsmith. Then there is the customer service and packing/shipping type quality issues related to keeping a customer happy. I am NOT the only one to report issues in this arena as several have commented on this on the forum in the past few years. Are we just a handful of customers that had the misfortune of these customer service/shipping issues or is it a more pervasive problem for the company? I don't know. I hope not, but by detailing my experiences I hope some of you can better understand & appreciate why I sometimes make negative comments here. I really do try to emphasize the positives where I see them. Just today I highlighted the Shopsmith safety kit, which I really like and use, on another thread. It is unfortunate that my perception of Shopsmith has changed in the last 5 years or so, but I don't think I am the only one who feels this way. Correcting the kinds of issues listed above, in my opinion, is the absolute minimum for Shopsmith to take on in order to attempt to secure their future.

P.S. I have commented on this before in many threads, but each of us use different functions on our woodworking tools more than others, i.e. we all have different applications. Depending on what each of us choose to build, some will be barely used. For me that is the disc sander. I used it more in my early woodworking journey because of the type of projects that I took on at that time. Similarly I don't use a drill press all that often, but my cordless drill is indispensable (especially with my Woodpeckers Auto-Line Drill Guide). For some Shopsmith owners they might use these all the time simply because of the specific projects that they build require them. Another area where I think the new owner needs to understand: The 5-in-1, 7-in-1, or whatever marketing they want to spin on this are not really helpful in today's marketplace in my opinion. They remind me of the Leatherman style multipurpose tools that came out a few decades ago. There was a time when all the guys in my family had to have one, or the latest one. Often a Christmas or birthday gift. Fast forward to today and the only person that still carries one on his belt is my Dad. In my experience they were a fad that peaked and has now declined. Don't get me wrong, for specific use cases, a Leatherman style multipurpose tool is handy, for example when camping, but at home I am going to reach for high quality pliers, screwdrivers, etc. that are standalone. The key for Shopsmith is finding the niche of what potential customer in 2024 wants a multi-purpose woodworking machine. I fear that pool of potential new customers has dwindled just like they have for Leatherman style multi-purpose tools.

[algale]

But the comparable is the key word there.

Yes, straight up comparisons to stand alone machines gets complicated both in terms of quality and functionality. Woodshp Nerdery did a video on this. I wasn't fully convinced by his methodology, which included points for things like manuals (which nearly always gave Shopsmith an edge), or the machines he picked as comparable tools, but he was trying to be honest broker, I think.

Anyway, here's the Woodshop Nerdery video, teed up to 17 minute, 14 second mark, where he shows the tools he chose as comparable and the prices.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/nHiddGA2-6A?t=1034[/youtube]

Per his comparison, a new Mark 7 still comes out priced a little below the new price of his chosen comparable tools. (Prices may have changed since this video was done).

One problem with the comparison approach is that we all know the Shopsmith has some functions you just can't duplicate elsewhere at any price. Want a variable speed 12" disc sander with a depth stop that can be moved to the work via the quill? Guess what, you need a Shopsmith! Personally, I use those functions a lot because I have them and have figured out how useful they are. If I didn't have them, I wouldn't know what I was missing and wouldn't want them and would get a standard disc sander.

The biggest problem of all, however, is that Shopsmith isn't just competing with new tools that can be considered comparable , but is also competing with its own totally comparable old tools. Because they were so well built and because so many were built, you can source a used Mark 5, 510 or 520 (and usually a bunch of SPTS) locally in many parts of the country for far, far less than the price of a new Mark 7 and still buy a speed increaser/decreaser and double tilt upgrade if you want the additional functionality the Mark 7 provides.

If have a non-Shopsmith jointer and planer. If I had a larger workshop space and the budget, I'm sure I'd have a cabinet saw and a band saw with greater resaw capacity. But I'd still have my 520 in the shop, and use it for disc sanding, belt sanding, drum sanding, strip sanding and horizontal boring functions. And I'm sure I'd still use it for the occasional table sawing operation too. And I'd probably use the little band saw rather than change the blade on my big resawing band saw. The Shopsmith just does too many things too well and uniquely not to have one in your shop. But I've never been sold that they are a value proposition at the new price, at least not since I've been following along.

[edflorence]

If I had a larger workshop space

The Shopsmith just does too many things too well and uniquely not to have one in your shop.

This has been a very interesting thread, and, like RF Guy, I wish the company all the best and a long and profitable future. We can all agree that Shopsmith's Customer Service, Shipping, Advertising, Web Presence must be improved, and we can all debate about the cost of a new Mk 7 versus stand-alone tools, but I think Al has managed to zero in on the niche Shopsmith carved out for itself and that made it successful for decades. IMHO, selling to the person who has ambitious projects in mind but doesn't have the space for a full cabinet shop is the way forward for Shopsmith.

[RFGuy]

I think it bears repeating that as woodworkers we all have different projects that interest us, but also there are a multitude of methods available for accomplishing a given task. So, what do I mean? If there is a particular feature that you love on a MV/7, etc. that is great. Some love the horizontal boring, but I dislike it. Commercial machines that do this are limited in my understanding and they are mainly used for creating mortises in woodworking applications. Some use it for doweling, but honestly there are lots of dowel jigs available and even mortise jig options to the hobby woodworker...so I have to ask can someone tell me how the horizontal boring is a must have feature to a woodworker in 2024? I ask because perhaps I am missing the killer application of this in my shop, but from my understanding I think I have sized up its capabilities. I acknowledge that it is a great additional capability for the machine, but I don't see it as more than this. There are many ways to do the same thing, some even better, so for me horizontal boring is not a killer application. Next is the 12" disc sander. I totally agree that if you are going to have a sanding disc, why not have a quill advance and the ability to hold the workpiece, so kudos to Shopsmith for this. Today in my shop I primarily use the 12" sanding disc for sharpening planer knives. Unless you are doing a lot of work with figured woods and need the 12" conical disc sander, what am I missing with the disc sander that all of you love so much? I think we all can get a bit myopic in the ways that we do woodworking - tunnel vision if you will. Myself included. I believe there are many different ways to accomplish a given task given one's particular skill level and tools available to them. I am posting this in all sincerity in hopes there are areas I haven't thought of that I might rediscover with my Shopsmith equipment, but if not perhaps I challenge some of you to reassess and look for other methods to learn for yourselves. Taking the SPT's out of the equation, I largely see my Mark V as a tablesaw, drill press and lathe. Don't get me wrong this is a great combination in that floor space in a single machine. The horizontal boring and disc sander, for me, are analogous to the toothpick or corkscrew on the Swiss Army knife (least used/desired parts of knife). Please give me well reasoned and thoughtful answers for why I might be wrong as I post this with a lot of thought and care. However, I am also trying to challenge preconceived notions here so my post has to be a little provocative. IF I am wrong, please constructively show me the how and the why I am wrong. Thank you.

[dusty]

I think it bears repeating that as woodworkers we all have different projects that interest us, but also there are a multitude of methods available for accomplishing a given task. So, what do I mean? If there is a particular feature that you love on a MV/7, etc. that is great. Some love the horizontal boring, but I hate it. Commercial machines that do this are limited in my understanding and they are mainly used for creating mortises in woodworking applications. Some use it for doweling, but honestly there are lots of dowel jigs available and even mortise jig options to the hobby woodworker...so I have to ask can someone tell me how the horizontal boring is a must have feature to a woodworker in 2024? I ask because perhaps I am missing the killer application of this in my shop, but from my understanding I think I have sized up its capabilities. I acknowledge that it is a great additional capability for the machine, but I don't see it as more than this. There are many ways to do the same thing, some even better, so for me horizontal boring is not a killer application. Next is the 12" disc sander. I totally agree that if you are going to have a sanding disc, why not have a quill advance and the ability to hold the workpiece, so kudos to Shopsmith for this. Today in my shop I primarily use the 12" sanding disc for sharpening planer knives. Unless you are doing a lot of work with figured woods and need the 12" conical disc sander, what am I missing with the disc sander that all of you love so much? I think we all can get a bit myopic in the ways that we do woodworking - tunnel vision if you will. Myself included. I believe there are many different ways to accomplish a given task given one's particular skill level and tools available to them. I am posting this in all sincerity in hopes there are areas I haven't thought of that I might rediscover with my Shopsmith equipment, but if not perhaps I challenge some of you to reassess and look for other methods to learn for yourselves. Taking the SPT's out of the equation, I largely see my Mark V as a tablesaw, drill press and lathe. Don't get me wrong this is a great combination in that floor space in a single machine. The horizontal boring and disc sander, for me, are analogous to the toothpick or corkscrew on the Swiss Army knife (least used/desired parts of knife). Please give me well reasoned and thoughtful answers for why I might be wrong as I post this with a lot of thought and care. However, I am also trying to challenge preconceived notions here so my post has to be a little provocative. IF I am wrong, please constructively show me the how and the why I am wrong. Thank you.

NO, you are not wrong. You have stated your opinions and those can not be challenged by others.

[algale]

@RFGuy -- I agree: different strokes for different folks. One of the things I do all the time with the Shopsmith disc sander is described and shown in PTWFE and that is sanding pieces to the exact same length by using the quill, the depth stop, and backing things up with the fence. While I can cut items to the same length with various techniques, there is often some small defect -- feathers, chips, etc., on the cut end and touching up the ends with the disc sander is the way to go for me. Then to ensure all pieces that are supposed to be the same length are exactly the same length, I use the method described in PTWFE. Not saying there aren't other methods. It is just one that works for me. There are very few projects we do as woodworkers that don't require pairs of pieces made to the same length so I use this method a lot.

By the way, I agree the toothpick is pretty useless on the Swiss Army knife and I've rarely used the corkscrew. But the tweezers are literally the best tweezers in the world IMO. Many a splinter has been plucked with those little tweezers.

[edma194]

One of the things I do all the time with the Shopsmith disc sander is described and shown in PTWFE and that is sanding pieces to the exact same length by using the quill, the depth stop, and backing things up with the fence. While I can cut items to the same length with various techniques, there is often some small defect -- feathers, chips, etc., on the cut end and touching up the ends with the disc sander is the way to go for me. Then to ensure all pieces that are supposed to be the same length are exactly the same length, I use the method described in PTWFE.

I do that frequently. I'll finish the edge of a lot of boards with the sander, including bevels which are easy to do by tilting the table. You can easily sand a radius on the corner of a board, and I use the sander for shaping metal also.

The horizontal borer makes doweling easy. A hand drill with a jig work fairly well, but setting up stops allows holes to be perfectly aligned and straight into the board. I don't use pocket screws much but the horizontal borer can make those easy too. Holding a board on end to drill in drill press mode can be a problem, it's much easier with the board flat on the table. And of course for those who haven't made a dedicated drill press from a Shopsmith you don't have to convert to drill press mode to drill any hole.

The horizontal boring mode allows mounting all sorts of rotary tools, drum sanders, flap sanders, rotary rasps, grinding wheels, cutoff wheels, buffing wheels, etc. Many of those would be impractical to use in drill press mode.

Not everybody will use those features but I take advantage of them.

[RFGuy]

NO, you are not wrong. You have stated your opinions and those can not be challenged by others.

Dusty,

I am less interested in stating opinions and more interested in getting to truth for all of us. There might be areas where I could be using my Mark V that I hadn't thought of, which is why I posted what I did. My perception is that the Mark V was the Swiss Army knife of the woodworking world when it was first released. However, in the intervening decades there are more tools available to both the professional and hobby woodworker alike. My supposition is that the 5-in-1 woodworking tool had A LOT more utility in the 1950's than it does for a woodworker in 2024 given what is available. With affordable and powerful routers today any woodworker can make mortises like a pro. So, is horizontal boring as useful today in comparison? Disc sanders always have utility and some owners will use them more than others. Every company uses marketing lingo to sell a product and Shopsmith is no different. The horizontal boring is one of the most trumpeted features of the tool, that and the 5-in-1 utility. I know some here love the horizontal boring and we have talked about it before. I am not trying to convince you to stop using it or even that I am right. Let's say a new woodworker approached you on the street and you wanted to convince them that Shopsmith was right for them. I am highlighting the 2 out of 5 tools that I don't use much on my Mark V (well 4 out of 7 if you count routing/shaping). Assume this newbie woodworker isn't sure about a Mark V/7 for similar reasons that I highlight. I am going back to the why a woodworker in 2024 should buy a Mark V/7. I am hoping this change in conversation on this thread might be illuminating for me, but better yet might convince a newbie to purchase a Mark V/7. I just don't want us all repeating the same marketing such as horizontal boring is awesome...my point is show me, i.e. give me examples of where it excels. Please show me.

P.S. Excellent examples above Ed and Alan and this is what I am looking for. Thank you.