Shopsmith Forums

Just saw this new item from Kreg the loose tenon jig. While I don't use loose tenons very often, but for those of you that do, I was just thinking... If you put your machine into horizontal boring mode and attach the Kreg jig, it might work out really well. With the auxiliary tables you'd get support for even long boards. And at $300 it is a tiny fraction of Festool price. Any thoughts?
https://www.kregtool.com/shop/pocket-ho ... ber%202024

cham-ed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:10 am Just saw this new item from Kreg the loose tenon jig. While I don't use loose tenons very often, but for those of you that do, I was just thinking... If you put your machine into horizontal boring mode and attach the Kreg jig, it might work out really well. With the auxiliary tables you'd get support for even long boards. And at $300 it is a tiny fraction of Festool price. Any thoughts?
https://www.kregtool.com/shop/pocket-ho ... ber%202024

It looks like a more expensive, but lower quality version of the Jessem Pocket Mill Pro (see link below to previous thread). Biggest drawback to either the Jessem or the Kreg equivalent is going to be it is really slow to make a mortise that way. The Kreg video is deceptive because they show at the beginning a mortise being completed in like 1-2 seconds, but later in the video they say their auto-indexing system cuts in 1/16" deep passes, so similar to Jessem's making it really slow to cut a mortise (Kreg didn't show all of the passes to cut that mortise at the beginning of the video). Honestly, if one is going to pluck $300 down on this Kreg jig, I really don't understand why they wouldn't spend 3x that to get the Domino which is insanely faster, the tenons fit snugly, leaves NO dust behind and can be taken to the workpiece - NOT the other way around. IF cost is the issue, then better off getting a mortise template (or make one) and use a handheld router, as many typically do. IMHO, the Jessem or Kreg jigs are an interesting piece of engineering that solves a problem less efficiently than the Domino or router template loose tenon methods...they are NOT a better mousetrap in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?p=303339#p303339

RFGuy beat me to the punch on this, but JessEm makes a very similar portable drill product called a Pocket Mill Pro. And Woodpeckers makes a router-based competing product. All of them work by moving the cutter in relation to a stationary workpiece. My first thought is it would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to adapt any of them to a stationary tool like the SS Mark series. But the good news for us is that the Mark already makes for a darn good slot mortise machine. And the Mark does not limit you to the set of loose tenon sizes defined under the heading of Domino tenons. None of these will replace the Festool Domino machines for speed and convenience. But for those that use a small number of Domino tenons I consider the Mark to be a good choice, despite its inherent limitations as a router. Off-setting those limitations, it is a horizontal or overhead stationary plunge router, along with any angle in between and can cut slot mortises in any practical dimensions.

- David

+1!

David, Ed,

Thanks. Good point about Shopsmith tools (Mark V, VII, 7, etc.) being able to slot mortise. I guess I tend to think of loose tenon joinery as being a faster, easier alternative to the traditional M&T joint. Isn't that the point of loose tenon joinery??? Just pop a mortise in two opposing workpieces and slap a tenon (and some glue) in and done. Not quite as good, but biscuit joinery is analogous to loose tenon joinery. Now, of course, some woodworkers build large mortises and tenons in loose tenon joinery, e.g. I have seen some on YT use them in jointing countertop pieces together, or table breadboard ends, or wooden gates, etc., etc. Using a Shopsmith tool for this could certainly be acceptable. So, speed isn't always the most important thing, but to me, it seems like loose tenon joinery is most commonly used where the strength of traditional M&T joint is desired but you don't have all day to spend with chisels and test fitting joints. So, this is why the Festool Domino was built, i.e. to make fast, near perfect loose tenon joints. I guess I have to ask if one is going to do it slower, then why not consider doing a full M&T instead? IF speed isn't the deciding factor, then I think the router method is a great way to go because palm routers today are so powerful & versatile. This with a template is ideal because you can bring the tool to the workpiece. Sure, you can do these functions on a Shopsmith tool, but getting good registration against your reference marks on the workpiece for proper alignment of the joinery takes considerably more effort IMHO. With a Festool Domino it is effortless to sight down on the reference marks through the fence because it is right in front of you. On cost, to me $300 is A LOT of money for any tool purchase, which is why I say if you are willing to put down that kind of hard cash, why not spend more to get the right tool for the job??? You'll be happier in the long run. While I marvel at the engineering and design that went into the Jessem Pocket Mill Pro and the Kreg jigs, they really are a square peg trying to fit into a round hole to me. That being said, IF anyone has purchased either, I would really love to hear their first hand experience in using one. Always willing to change my mind with new information. One other thing in the Kreg video is they show fitting the joint at the end and it slides, so clearly they are cutting an extra wide mortise. You have 3 settings on a Domino for this, either snug fitting for precise horizontal alignment of the two workpieces or two wider settings where there is some leeway to allow for horizontal movement. This is ideal for example when building a tabletop or similar panel. You only need to cut one mortise at the snug setting so that the two board ends align perfectly, then every additional mortise down the length of the two boards you joint can have a looser mortise setting, which greatly simplifies glue up fitment. Another advantage of this ability is when sometimes you build a joint that has to allow for lateral wood movement. I didn't take the time to read more on the Kreg website, but I wonder if the Kreg jig has the option of adjusting that mortise width or if it is always loose. IF the latter, that would be disappointing. Last point on cost for those wanting to slot mortise with their Shopsmith tools...keep in mind current pricing is $5.25k for the latest version from the mothership so that Festool Domino is cheap compared to the latest & greatest Shopsmith equivalent.

OK RF Guy Tell me how you use the Festool Domino cutter to saw, drill, shape, . . . . Price comparison is peas to watermelons.

JPG wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:53 pm OK RF Guy Tell me how you use the Festool Domino cutter to saw, drill, shape, . . . . Price comparison is peas to watermelons.

JPG,

Can't tell how serious you are with your reply, so I will give a detailed response to try to spell out my intent. My main point is that, to me, loose tenon joinery is all about speed. I don't know the history of joinery and when loose tenons popped on the scene, so if someone wants to argue this, go ahead. It is not of interest to me. Today, loose tenon joints offer a fast and strong method of joinery. Another joint type that is all about speed are pocket screw joinery. Okay, so with that pretext, there are alternative ways to make loose tenon joints, e.g. the Kreg and Jessem jigs were discussed and they are SLOW. For me, this would be analogous to someone choosing to do a pocket hole with a brace and bit. In 2024, why would someone do this? Now, to counter my own assertion, David and Ed made good points about using Shopsmith tools to make the slot mortises for loose tenons. This is a good point and you can make custom sizes which can be very handy for some projects. So, I am agreeing with them, with the caveat that it is slower, A LOT slower than a Festool Domino. Of course, a Shopsmith tool may be all that one has in their shop and there is that saying about necessity that I hate, won't repeat it, but you get the idea...I hope. So, this brings me to my 2nd point that I tried to make above which is cost. Many woodworkers malign Festool because the Domino is so expensive, kinda like me always b****ing about the present cost of a new Mark 7. Honestly, until one owns a Domino, it is difficult to understand/appreciate, much like until one owns a tracksaw, it is difficult to understand/appreciate their value proposition. I certainly shook my head and hand wrangled over the price of the Festool Domino before I purchased it. So, of course you are right ( ), a Domino is a one trick pony, and a Mark 7 has a couple of tricks it does reasonably well and others NOT so well IMHO. You know it is like the Swiss Army knife of woodworking. In comparing prices, I was just trying to point out (on price alone) that a Shopsmith Mark 7 is VERY expensive for what it does, just as the Festool Domino is VERY expensive for what it does (common ground). Given we are on a Shopsmith forum and presumably those reading would be pro-Shopsmith, then my intent was to hopefully open the eyes of readers here so that they perhaps give the Festool Domino the benefit of the doubt and consider that that lofty price demanded by Festool just might be justified. Seriously doubt I will sway anyone here, just like you probably won't have much luck swaying me that the "smart" motor and related components of the Mark 7 are worth $5.25k in 2024. I hope this helped to clarify what I posted up above...

Fair enough.

My point was: $300/$5200 was near equivalent to peas/watermelon

RFGuy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:28 am I guess I tend to think of loose tenon joinery as being a faster, easier alternative to the traditional M&T joint. Isn't that the point of loose tenon joinery??? Just pop a mortise in two opposing workpieces and slap a tenon (and some glue) in and done.

That's an enlightening description. I suspect that only a Festool Domino user would or could describe loose tenon joinery this way. 'Loose tenon' to me does not imply slot mortises nor tenons bought in a bag (or whatever), though it includes both. So to me it is an M&T joint that requires twice as many mortises. It seems to me that the Festool Domino has redefined loose tenon joinery. If we exclude dowels and biscuits from our definition of loose tenons, then I as a non-Domino guy make few loose tenon joints. If we further reduce our definition to exclude all tenons that don't match L, W, and D of Dominoes then I have likely made zero lifetime. Clearly, I don't need an expensive tool for that. What I think Festool seeks to do is change woodworking by promoting the use of loose tenons of those specific dimensions along with the tools for the mortises that fit them. So a Festool Domino user might use 40 or 100 loose tenon joints in a single project in which I would use none, but 40 or 100 dowels and/or biscuits. It took me a while, but I see the value in the Festool Domino system. I also see the price point as potentially prohibitive for many woodworkers even if they build, or want to build, projects that benefit from the system.

- David