To wobble or not to wobble
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To wobble or not to wobble
What are the pro and con arguments for selecting a dado package. Why would I choose a wobble blade (I'm not even sure what that means) over a stacked set, or the other way around?
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paulmcohen
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IMHO: Don't go need wobble dado blades, you never get a round bottom. They are cheap and easy to set but you never get a rounded bottom.
They are designed for machines with short arbors that can't take a stacked dado blade (Shopsmith does not qualify since it has a long arbor).
You can find a good description below of wobble-style dado blades.
http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/wobbledado.html
I have used several different stacked dado sets, I prefer carbide. I am currently using the Infinity Dadonator(TM)it is expensive ($189) even on sale but it is massive. It is highly rated by several magazines and has won many awards. This blade is massive (8 lbs I think) once you get it spinning it goes cleanly through anything. It is an 8" Blade so you need to be careful not to cut the Shopsmith dado throat-plate if you lower the table too much.
Freud also has some very nice 6" stacked blades at about 1/2 the price (or less on sale), I can't compare them directly because I used them on different projects with different saws. I have not used the Freud with my Shopsmith.
Another option with cheaper dado blades is to remove most of the material with a cheaper blade on the table saw where you don't get a flat bottom and then follow up with a dado router bit to clean up the bottom. This is an extra step but if the edge is visible may be worth the time.
They are designed for machines with short arbors that can't take a stacked dado blade (Shopsmith does not qualify since it has a long arbor).
You can find a good description below of wobble-style dado blades.
http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/wobbledado.html
I have used several different stacked dado sets, I prefer carbide. I am currently using the Infinity Dadonator(TM)it is expensive ($189) even on sale but it is massive. It is highly rated by several magazines and has won many awards. This blade is massive (8 lbs I think) once you get it spinning it goes cleanly through anything. It is an 8" Blade so you need to be careful not to cut the Shopsmith dado throat-plate if you lower the table too much.
Freud also has some very nice 6" stacked blades at about 1/2 the price (or less on sale), I can't compare them directly because I used them on different projects with different saws. I have not used the Freud with my Shopsmith.
Another option with cheaper dado blades is to remove most of the material with a cheaper blade on the table saw where you don't get a flat bottom and then follow up with a dado router bit to clean up the bottom. This is an extra step but if the edge is visible may be worth the time.
Hi,
If you can, get both. I have both and to be honest for a lot of the things I do the speed of setting up the wobble makes it the more used one.
I don't know if this is to basic but skip it if it is. The wobble has a gauge on it that gets you close to the size of say the dado you want to cut. So you set the dial and then make a test cut in some scrap. If it is "right on" you are done but often it is not. So you have to adjust it, this is done by backing the nut off and turning the dial to make it larger or smaller. Redo the nut and repeat the test cut... Most of the time I manage this in just this one pass but sometimes you have to do it again.... and well sometimes even more times... This is really not bad doing. You can also mark the width of say plywood on the scale for next time. Quite a time saver.
Now the same thing can be said for the stacked set. I should point out there are several types of stacked sets that each work a bit differently but a "typical" one works like this. You have two outside blades and then a set of "chippers" that are stacked between. The chippers have a set width they cut as do the outside blades so you need to add that up and come out to a size that is just what you want or smaller. (Some stacked dado have blades that give you 1/16" steps, others do better.) The way you make up the differences is with shims that go between the chippers. Again a bunch of ways to do this. (In the old days we use to use chipboard with holes punched in. You ended up taking off the nut and washers, the outside blade and chippers then added the chipboard and stacked everything back up... what a pain.) Now you can buy slide in shims but you still need to loosen the nut and sperate the chippers to slide the shims in. The shims are thin so you have to figure out how short you are then pick out the right set of shims to come out right. You of course might get this wrong so again sometimes it is a redo. The shims are often in amounts like .002", .005", .010, and .020. so if you have a ruler in 1/32" scale and you are off by half that amount or .0156 you need to take and add a .010 + .005 and see how .015 works or maybe just go to a .010 + .010 and see how .020 works just over .004 wider... I made up an excel spread sheet so I just reference that and always go just a little wider.
Once you start looking around you will find that even the simple wobble has a couple versions... Then there is the one with two blades, it is especial interesting, some times called a v-blade dado. I don't have one of those but it sure looks interesting. When you get to stacked dados they have so many of those out there I would hate to guess how many.... and all just a little different then the others. (The v-blade might be v-dado just posting from my memory... just like a steel trap my mind, yea a really rusted one at that.)
Then there is price points... how much do you need to spend??? So much of that depends on what you are going to do with it. A lot of work I did with dado's has been replace with using routers... I see shopsmith has both, the wobble style is less then half the price of the without the shim set. As was mentioned you can spend a lot of money on the stacked sets, some I've seen are in the almost $300 range (Forest).
If you have to get only one then the stacked set might be the best bet as it gives you the square bottom grooves/dados which is importain in exposed joints, it is somewhat more splinter free, and may work better if you do a lot of hardwood work. If price is more importain then the wobble might be the winner. While you are at it look at the v-dado it has some pluses as well.
Ed
If you can, get both. I have both and to be honest for a lot of the things I do the speed of setting up the wobble makes it the more used one.
I don't know if this is to basic but skip it if it is. The wobble has a gauge on it that gets you close to the size of say the dado you want to cut. So you set the dial and then make a test cut in some scrap. If it is "right on" you are done but often it is not. So you have to adjust it, this is done by backing the nut off and turning the dial to make it larger or smaller. Redo the nut and repeat the test cut... Most of the time I manage this in just this one pass but sometimes you have to do it again.... and well sometimes even more times... This is really not bad doing. You can also mark the width of say plywood on the scale for next time. Quite a time saver.
Now the same thing can be said for the stacked set. I should point out there are several types of stacked sets that each work a bit differently but a "typical" one works like this. You have two outside blades and then a set of "chippers" that are stacked between. The chippers have a set width they cut as do the outside blades so you need to add that up and come out to a size that is just what you want or smaller. (Some stacked dado have blades that give you 1/16" steps, others do better.) The way you make up the differences is with shims that go between the chippers. Again a bunch of ways to do this. (In the old days we use to use chipboard with holes punched in. You ended up taking off the nut and washers, the outside blade and chippers then added the chipboard and stacked everything back up... what a pain.) Now you can buy slide in shims but you still need to loosen the nut and sperate the chippers to slide the shims in. The shims are thin so you have to figure out how short you are then pick out the right set of shims to come out right. You of course might get this wrong so again sometimes it is a redo. The shims are often in amounts like .002", .005", .010, and .020. so if you have a ruler in 1/32" scale and you are off by half that amount or .0156 you need to take and add a .010 + .005 and see how .015 works or maybe just go to a .010 + .010 and see how .020 works just over .004 wider... I made up an excel spread sheet so I just reference that and always go just a little wider.
Once you start looking around you will find that even the simple wobble has a couple versions... Then there is the one with two blades, it is especial interesting, some times called a v-blade dado. I don't have one of those but it sure looks interesting. When you get to stacked dados they have so many of those out there I would hate to guess how many.... and all just a little different then the others. (The v-blade might be v-dado just posting from my memory... just like a steel trap my mind, yea a really rusted one at that.)
Then there is price points... how much do you need to spend??? So much of that depends on what you are going to do with it. A lot of work I did with dado's has been replace with using routers... I see shopsmith has both, the wobble style is less then half the price of the without the shim set. As was mentioned you can spend a lot of money on the stacked sets, some I've seen are in the almost $300 range (Forest).
If you have to get only one then the stacked set might be the best bet as it gives you the square bottom grooves/dados which is importain in exposed joints, it is somewhat more splinter free, and may work better if you do a lot of hardwood work. If price is more importain then the wobble might be the winner. While you are at it look at the v-dado it has some pluses as well.
Ed
I need to post a disagreement with the assessment of wobble dadoes by paul and the article in the link from his post. If you go to that link, please note his disclaimer in italics above the first paragraph. (He said he received one E-mail - now he has received two)jgchips wrote:What are the pro and con arguments for selecting a dado package. Why would I choose a wobble blade (I'm not even sure what that means) over a stacked set, or the other way around?
I have used a reasonably priced wobble for years. This is my second wobble. It is (720590) from Shopsmith. The first one was used on a radial arm saw and was sold with the saw. Both wobbles have carbide teeth. It produces very flat bottoms at the 3/4" setting and is only a little inverted "V" at 1/4". I think the inversion changes into a "V" bottom at larger than 3/4" settings. If my wobble were to wear out tomorrow, I could buy two more to replace it and still not reached the expenditure of a good stacked set. It is easy to set up to make grooves for plywood (11/32" or sometimes less). This usually takes a couple of tries on scraps, but the setting is done without hassle right on the SS. Usually takes but a couple of minutes.
I also disagree with the "vibration" idea. Mine doesn't vibrate! Just think about it! Although the teeth wobble from side to side as it turns, the law of physics causes opposite sides to always off-set each other's weight. It just can't physically wobble up or down - in or out. What folks think is vibration is probably caused by running the saw too slowly, causing the operator to feel the strikes of the teeth.
The picture of quality of cut in the link (from above) exaggerates any difference between the two types of cutters. Many woodworking Magazines have had articles rating both wobble and stacked dado's. Although stacked always comes out on top - some writers have found some good wobbles.
Like I said, I have been using a wobble for years. And I am very picky on how my work turns out!!! I have made only a couple of pieces with exposed dado's. Believe me! these are flat bottomed dado's. In most cases of otherwise exposed dado's, I cover the dado with a front. In these cases, What difference does the bottom of a dado make? Once again, when you stop to think about a mortise and tenon joint. Most craftsmen leave a small space at the bottom for glue. (or for shrinkage of stiles). (Anyway the butt portion of a joint is not significant in holding the piece.)
As I see it - - Unless a craftsman is a professional and writes off the cost of his tools - there is absolutely no reason to spring for an expensive dado cutter.
Let's take a lesson from the old timers. They used hand planes to make dado's and grooves. This tool has only one blade. Why did all of the old grooves and dado's not show tear-out on the edges? Because these guys were craftsmen and first scored their work. In modern day use - taped edges of plywood and melamine stops side tear-out pretty well. - - So does scoring! It only takes a little caring to produce excellent cuts.
The discussion of wobble vs. stacked will most likely go on and on and on....
Gotta like the guys that market the expensive stuff as well as the good but cheaper stuff. The "expensive guys" will continue to lobby the trade magazines and retailers more than the "cheap guys". They have more to lose!
Enough said!
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Hi,
In my earier post had not take the time to check out the link but after reading Chucks response I did.
I have to agree with Chuck on this one... I have not seen any extra vibration on my wobble in fact it runs very nice and clean and certainly as smooth as any blade I have.
Another option that works well for rabbets as well as other cuts is the molding head cutter. They have a lot of wind noise but do a nice job of cutting... you do need to limit the amount of wood you take off at one time but that only makes since. I have one of these I got back before I got my shopsmith (before 1976) and a pile of cutters. Using on the shopsmith was great compaired to the table saw because I could dial down the speed. I did all my molding using this way back when as well as rabbets. I use to do the dado job by stepping the standard saw blades then cleaning up with a dado plane and chisels. Oh the good old days.
Ed
In my earier post had not take the time to check out the link but after reading Chucks response I did.
I have to agree with Chuck on this one... I have not seen any extra vibration on my wobble in fact it runs very nice and clean and certainly as smooth as any blade I have.
Another option that works well for rabbets as well as other cuts is the molding head cutter. They have a lot of wind noise but do a nice job of cutting... you do need to limit the amount of wood you take off at one time but that only makes since. I have one of these I got back before I got my shopsmith (before 1976) and a pile of cutters. Using on the shopsmith was great compaired to the table saw because I could dial down the speed. I did all my molding using this way back when as well as rabbets. I use to do the dado job by stepping the standard saw blades then cleaning up with a dado plane and chisels. Oh the good old days.
Ed
Thanks to all
Wow!! Thank you all for sharing your time, knowledge and opinions. They're greatly appreciated.
Perhaps the best idea, for me, is to take the less expensive route for now. After working with it for a while, I'll better understand if it meets my needs. If not, I can always move up...apparently a long way up.
Again, thank you all.
Perhaps the best idea, for me, is to take the less expensive route for now. After working with it for a while, I'll better understand if it meets my needs. If not, I can always move up...apparently a long way up.
Again, thank you all.
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paulmcohen
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:10 pm
- Location: Beaverton, Oregon
- Contact:
jgchips wrote: Perhaps the best idea, for me, is to take the less expensive route for now.
I would recommend you start with a 6" blade (of any kind), they are usually less expensive and fit the Shopsmith well. You will also need the insert and Shopsmith arbor to put any dado blade on the Shopsmith. Shopsmith usually has a kit with everything you need at some discount.
I had a wobble and sold it because of the poor quality in good wood. It is fine for rough carpentry but for furniture making or small projects, I didn't like it. I bought a nice stacked set that has chippers with 4 teeth instead of just 2. I understand there aare sets with 6 chippers but they were a bit tii expensive. One tip - when I took the set in to my local sharpening shop I requested he grind the set to make as flat a bottom in the groove as possible. Apparently they usually grind the outer blades to a minor fraction larger diameter than the chippers - but they were happy to meet my request and they did a fine job. Even in hard wood, crossgrain grooves look almost perfect.
Andy
andy@manvell.org
andy@manvell.org