5' Extension Tubes

bspisak · Post by **bspisak** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:59 am

It's getting towards the end of the sale, and I'm still debating this one. Maybe those of you who use the 5' tubes can describe your setup to me and why you like it.

I've attached a doc file with some (very simple) drawings showing the setups that I envision with the requirement that I be able to use the jointer at the same time as the table.

Setup A:

Headstock pushed all the way to the left to drive jointer
Short extension tubes to left of main table (supported by telescoping legs positioned just inside the jointer) using one floating table
Short extension tubes to the right, between main table and extension table using the other floating table

I can do this without any add ons and get a 32" capacity and support to both sides of the table. This is a huge step up from my 500!

Setup B:

Similar to A, except uses 5' tubes instead of two pairs of short tubes.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that someone thought the 5' tubes where more stable/rigid and gave better alignment when used like this. Not sure this really works as I haven't measured it. Seems like it's not really a good use of the extra length tubes?

Setup C:

Similar to A, except uses 5' tubes to right of main table supported by telescoping legs.
Requires an extra set of legs if I want to retain left side support.

If I did this without the extension table for mid span support (such that I could use a single floating table) would the tubes be rigid enough for the entire 5' span between the main table and the legs?

Setup D:

Same as C except uses extension table for mid span support
Requires both an extra floating table and extra set of legs

Is this inherently more rigid and/or advantageous? It certainly is more expensive.

Setup E:

Short tubes between main table and extension table using one floater.
Short tubes between extension table and legs using one floater.

Does not use 5' tubes at all and achieves similar capacity as with 5' tubes. Gives up left side table support. Obvious advantage to this is cost. Again, I seem to remember someone criticizing this setup for stability reasons?

So, is the only real advantage I get with 5' tubes a greater than 32" capacity? If so, how often do you really use this larger capacity? And when you do, would you still like left side table support? Seems like anything that big will also require both infeed and outfeed support as well.

I usually just use a circular saw to rough cut panels to size before they get to the table saw. I can't really see then why I would need the greater capacity. So, are the 5' tubes valuable for a more rigid/stable/better aligned setup?

Thoughts?
Brian

paulmcohen · Post by **paulmcohen** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:23 am

I don't see the difference in material or manufacture between the shorter and 5' tubes. I don't know why they would be more stable or rigid. I have them and use them all the time, mainly with the headstock on the left and fixed table on the right I then put floating tables in between, I don't know how to do this with just the short tables. I also have both front and rear supports.

I tend to leave my Shopsmith set up this way and use all the tables as a kind of workbench. I tend not to ever use the legs except for mortising.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:35 am

I indicated that when setting up with the jointer on the left and an extension table on the right with two floating tables in between - I thought the 5' tubes offered a more riged setup.

This was in response to your post "Q - Using 510 Table with Jointer"

dusty wrote:Yes, you can set up that way. I suggest you get a pair of 5' tubes though (rather than using two sets of 27"). I believe the setup is more rigid.

Please give serious consideration to the 500 to 520 upgrade. I believe you will be much happier if you go all the way to a 520. The differences are worth every penny of the extra cost. Browse through this forum, you'll find that discussion many times. You'll find noone who has expressed a regret for upgrading to the 520.

You posted several questions regarding various setups. Please go back and read them all along with the resulting responses]

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:42 am

Just to make sure, I have just reconfigured with the jointer on the far left, the extension table on the right and two floating tables in between using only one pair of 27" tubes.

It can be done and there is no obvious indication of instability or lack of rigidity.

Nonetheless, I will not set up this way and I don't recommend that it be done. At a minimum, I recommend two sets of 27" tubes; one locked into the main table and the other into the extension table.

As an optimum, and it will be my preferred setup, I recommend this long spam be covered by the 5' tubes. That way there is no joint(weak point) anywhere in the span.

reible · Post by **reible** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:22 am

Hi,

After reading this I have to admit I was getting confused. I guess I'll add a bit to the post but forgive me for not answering all the case studies directlly.

First I think all the tube material is the same it is just cut to different length. But, if it were unsupported the lever arm would make it easier to bend/deflect the longer lengths.... The key here is unsupported. This same effect comes into play when using the tubes connected to the tilting table. If you lock the table and it just the table it is stable however if you stick a set of tubes in and then add an floating extension table and start pushing on that you may well find the table tilting unless you support it.

So how does the support system work? First you have a set of legs that can be used and second the is the use of the extension table. If you want to do a lot of fancy setups you will need to get a second set of legs and another extension table. Please check page c-42 in the mark V manual that came with the machine (Optional Setups with Floating Extension Tables, Connector Tubes and Telescoping Legs).

A few thing to keep in mind are that for the tubes that goes into the main table is best if it is in contact with both knobs and then extended from there. For the extension tables the tube should also go in far enough to be in contact with the knob. The tubes "float" within in the extrusions (tubes on the 505/510) the only solid point of contact being at the knobs when they are tight. (This is where the longer tubes make life better.)

I have the 5' tubes and use them a lot and would not want to be without them. If you think you might like them and they are on sale then by all means get them. As far as options for the shopsmith go they are a very good value and one of the cheaper things that can be done to improve on the machine.

If it were me I would never run the jointer and the table saw at the same time. One is always taking horse power from the other at the very least. I will not go into other details but at least debate it with yourself for a few minutes before deciding on how you want to go. It is america and people are still free to do as they wish.

Ed

bspisak · Post by **bspisak** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:54 am

dusty wrote:You posted several questions regarding various setups. Please go back and read them all along with the resulting responses]

Apologies if I said something that misrepresented your comments! It was your response that prompted my question to begin with. I got to thinking about how I might use the 5' tubes that would be beneficial over what I have now. The only advantage I (readily) see is that it gives more capacity to the right of the extension table. I don't really understand why you think the 5' tubes offer better rigidity. I'm not arguing, just trying to make the best decision.

To clarify: I can setup my machine using the 4 short extension tubes as follows: two to the left of the main table supported by the main table and the telescoping legs, and; two to the right of the main table supported by the main table and the extension table.

If I can span the distance between the main table and the extension table with the short tubes, then it seems to me that by going to the 5' tubes, I would then get additional length beyond the extension table (to the right.) My question then became, can I get away with not using the extension table in the middle of that span. I.e., I would have the 5' tubes supported by the main table on the left, and telescoping legs on the right such that one floating table could zip back and forth the entire length. Based on responses in this thread so far (and considering this more myself), it seems like I should forget that idea and stick with the extension table to support the 5' tubes midway. That's fine, it just forces use of another floating table.

But it seems what you're saying is that you simply use the 5' tubes to setup between the main table and the extension table with two floaters. This implies that you push the tubes farther through the main table to provide better rigidity and therefore are not take advantage of the extra length for added capacity to the right of the extension table? Did I get that right?

If you look at the diagrams in the file I attached, I think you can see what I'm talking about. If this is still confusing, I'll post a picture when I get a chance.

Brian

bspisak · Post by **bspisak** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:06 pm

reible wrote:... if it were unsupported the lever arm would make it easier to bend/deflect the longer lengths....

That certainly makes sense to me. I wasn't suggesting using a cantilevered tube configuration. The only question about support was if I used longer tubes between the main table and a set of legs, weather I would need support in the middle via the extension table.

reible wrote: A few thing to keep in mind are that for the tubes that goes into the main table is best if it is in contact with both knobs and then extended from there.

Ahhhh.... this must be what Dusty is saying as well. It wasn't obvious that this would be better to me. (I'll take your word for it though!) The setup I was describing assumed that the each tube was locked down with only one knob at the main table. I was then using the other knob to lock down a short tube to the left of the main table (supported by the telescoping legs.)

reible wrote:I have the 5' tubes and use them a lot and would not want to be without them. If you think you might like them and they are on sale then by all means get them. As far as options for the shopsmith go they are a very good value and one of the cheaper things that can be done to improve on the machine.

The extension tubes themselves seem reasonable, but then if I need to buy another floating table and another pair of telescoping legs....

If it were me I would never run the jointer and the table saw at the same time ... I will not go into other details but at least debate it with yourself for a few minutes before deciding on how you want to go.

I completely understand where you're coming from: there certainly is a safety factor. But, consider ripping a wide board into equal widths: Joint the edge, rip the board, joint again (on the remaining stock) rip again, etc. With both running, I can move back and forth between jointer and saw without stopping and without changing the setup.

If I'm using one or the other alone, I just slide the headstock to the right enough to pull the power coupler and the setup is minimally affected.

YMMV!

Brian

fjimp · Post by **fjimp** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:08 pm

I have two sets of the 5' extension tubes. I received a second set with my TS III Incra Ultra. My first thought was to sell the second set. On second thought they are heavily made. Offer a significant improvement in stability no matter which configuration you use them in. I have also purchased two extra floating tables and an extra stationary table. I use my 5' tubes frequently and wouldn't want to sacrifice the added safety offered by increased stability. I also like them when I set up my router table. Do yourself a favor and get a set. Jim

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:23 pm

Let me be odd man out. I simply hate having to loosen, tighten and adjust everything when I want to raise or lower my table.
I ordered the 5 ft tubes and tried them a few times then I carefully put them back in the mailing tube and set them aside. Because of the their length you must support them either at both ends or one end and the middle. That requirement now makes it necessary to adjust something other than the main table to adjust blade height and that to me is a problem.

Perhaps I change blade height too much or change blades too often.

My common setup is the short tubes through main table with a floater on either end and the aux table sitting in the right side position. With a floater on either side of the main table everything is balanced and raising the height or changing blades can be done with only a height adjustment.

The down side is the floating table over the headstock, blocks the on/off switch.

My plan cut down the 5 foot tube to a length where it is exactly as long as the main table plus two floater plus a gap between the main table the floater to the left to enable me to get to the switch(and one on the right for balance). I think I figured it out to be around 4 ft or so.

As for cutting ply and such, I have learned a long time ago throwing a full sheet of ply or MDF and trying to make a precision cut on a table saw is crazy. Now I slide the ply from the bed of my pickup onto my cutting table and slice it into pieces I will be using. The new guided saw systems offer a precise cut that rivals any cut made on the finest panel saw or cabinet saw using the best blade. Plus they offer dust collection that collects 95%+ of the dust (very important with MDF). No more picking up whole sheets of ply and MDF for me.
Ed

reible · Post by **reible** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:49 pm

Hi,

I'll add just three more comments of things I have found that have help me with my woodworking skill along the lines of this post and might be something for others to think about too.

One is I have added a second extension table to my set up to be used to the left side only. I have found that I like the main extension table mounted to the right and do the alignment for that side. And as mentioned in the shopsmith manual, that doesn't mean it is aligned when mounted on the left side... (and in my case it is not for sure as I have checked this out several times). This purchase has allowed greater flexability in my setups and can speed setting ups in the long run. Not cheap to do but I like it and wish I had done it before I earlier.

Second, I have found that the "glue line" type rip blades do a great job and yes you can cut and not need to joint boards. I have one from Infinity I'm using now and it is even better then the brand I had before....... and even they do did great job. Yes you still need to joint to get a straight edge to start with but once you have that away you go with cutting. Of course your results may vary depending on lot of factors but for me I'm "sold" on them.

Third, adding the support table and or extension table brackets as well as roller stands takes the shopsmith to new levels of use with longer stock. As the additional width issues have been addressed in this post don't forget the length issues.

Even if you can buy all these goodies now it is a good idea to start a list and watch for sales. Especial sales with free shipping, they get me all the time. You can do things like order the floating extension tables now and then convert it to an extension table by ordering the legs on another sale and getting the hardware at the hardware store...

Ed